Talk:Turkey

The article is too long

It's currently 13,585 words or 87kb.[1] Will aim for under 9k words per Wikipedia:Article_size and Wikipedia:Peer_review/Turkey/archive3. That means multiple sections will need to be trimmed. Although some areas need expansion. For example, coverage of earthquakes, faultlines etc are ridiculously short. Bogazicili (talk) 20:06, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Trimming is certainly a good thing, but you should ensure first that the child articles are in an appropriate shape. E.g., Turkey#Republic_of_Turkey is much better writen than History_of_Turkey#Republic_of_Turkey; the latter trails off into a mere timeline (but then child-child article History of the Republic of Turkey is looks better). This is relevant because History of Turkey in its entirety is the child article of Turkey#History. So anyonw jumping straight from the section Turkey#History to History of Turkey will have – as of now – a worse reading experience at the bottom of the latter than at the bottom of the Turkey#History. I only mention this because I have seen cases trimming of main articles without brushing up the child articles. I think @CMD can be of much help in the challenge of how to create best structure and best content in article hierarchies. –Austronesier (talk) 09:26, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

• Trimmed lengthy part about branches of government.[2] This is already in Government of Turkey. Bogazicili (talk) 19:36, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

  After 13.5k, the article is finally 11,518 words. Bogazicili (talk) 22:23, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

The article is still 11,402 words. I'll rewrite and shorten the Foreign relations section, which is one of the longest sections now. Other parts of the article will be trimmed too, although I might add a few things as well. I don't think the article can get below 9k words, but below 10k will be my goal. Bogazicili (talk) 18:35, 22 September 2024 (UTC) Bump Bogazicili (talk) 12:50, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

If you want an easy word removal, remove the Science and technology subsection. It's a level 4 section in Economy of Turkey, totally out of relative proportion here. CMD (talk) 13:01, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

I'm still going over the article. There are lots of places to remove and trim before Science and technology subsection. Some parts still have very poor sourcing.

For example, one paragraph in climate is redundant. LGBTQ rights needs to be trimmed and merged into Human rights section.

The child articles are also very low quality. So we can't asses DUE with respect to other Wikipedia sources.

I have been sidetracked with other Wiki articles

By the way, we are at 10,746 words now. Much better compared to 13,585 words Bogazicili (talk) 13:20, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

10,641 words at the moment. There are lots of places to tighten and get below 10k. I'll be doing that over the next several weeks. Also note that there's an actually an article: Science and technology in Turkey.

I won't be aiming for under 9k though. I think under 10k is ok, even for Featured Articles. Bogazicili (talk) 19:13, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Ethnicity

@Bogazicili Two things before we get to the material discussed. Please do not re-revert when your change away from the stable version has been reverted. Secondly, the template you have given me for 'not providing a valid reason in the edit summary' is wholly inappropriate; I explained my reasoning quite clearly in an edit summary.

As for the content dispute; I disagree with you on multiple counts.

1) I disagree with the comment made by the peer reviewer; all citizens are Turkey are not by definition Turkish -- at least not by most definitions. Turkish as an identity covering all citizens is virtually never cited as an ethnic definition, but rather a legal term, because it was created as such and is generally not used by ethnically non-Turkish citizens as a pan-ethnicity. Our article on Turkish people makes this distinction:

While the legal use of the term Turkish as it pertains to a citizen of Turkey is different from the term's ethnic definition, the majority of the Turkish population (an estimated 70 to 75 percent) are of Turkish ethnicity.

Here, as in most WP:RS, a simple distinction is drawn; there is the ethnic definition of Turkish, covering three-fourths of the Turkey's population, and the legal definition, which is contrasted with the ethnic definition, and includes nearly everyone. The latter does not belong in the ethnic groups section, because it is not referred to, in WP:RS, as an ethnicity. (See the sources given from my quote)

2) There is, indeed, another ideological stance that knowingly conflates the legal term with the ethnic term. This should be considered WP:FRINGE, however, as I have never seen WP:RS that defends a Turkish origin for the Kurds, for example. That much is pseudo-science from the 1980 military junta. So if this second position is what you are referring to as ethnicity, then it would be WP:POV to use it here.

3) Yes, German can have a citizenship-based definition, but the context and the politics surrounding that are entirely different, and the German infobox has no "ethnic groups" section.

Long story short, the definition you are providing is not thought of as an ethnic one in mainstream scholarship, and therefore should not go into the ethnic groups section. Uness232 (talk) 22:47, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Your revert was inappropriate because all the footnotes and reliably sourced information within was deleted without a proper reason. You didn't just remove the parts you objected to, like the percentages.

As for the content issue, the footnotes make it clear. For example, there are people who identify as both a Turk and Kurd in Turkey. For example, Hülya Avşar: "hem Kürdüm hem Türküm" [3]. You do not get to say she is not a Turk, but just a Kurd. You also do not get to say she is not a Kurd, but just a Turk.

This is the footnote: "Turkish constitution defines all citizens as “Turks”.[6] In surveys, when asked about their ethnic background, people may self-report different answers.[7] Some people have multiple ethnic identities.[8][9]" Everything in the footnote is WP:RS

It makes the legal definition clear. It makes it clear people may self-identify in different ways. It also makes it clear some people like Hülya Avşar have multiple ethnic identities. And the infobox gives percentages based on both definitions.

Pages like Germans, French people just give the citizenship numbers. Germany doesn't have ethnicity info in the infobox. But Turkey does. So just giving the one, single-choice (adds up to 100%) definition, while ignoring the citizenship definition (or ignoring people who identify as both Turk and Kurd etc) is biased (against WP:NPOV). Turkish people should also give the numbers for both. Maybe the only thing I can add is to give examples in the footnote: "people may self-report different answers, such as Kurd or Arab"

I forgot to add. Giving the legal definition does not mean suggesting "Turkish origin for the Kurds". That is ridiculous. Bogazicili (talk) 23:19, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

@Bogazicili People might indeed have multiple ethnic identities. However, unlike Hülya Avşar's case, some people may also identify as both Kurd and Zaza, or might identify with two other non-Turkish ethnicities. The citizenship definition does not get rid of this problem; to say it does would be assuming that everyone who identifies with multiple ethnic groups are by definition identifying with "Turk" along with a non-Turkish identity, which is not the case. If there is a problem here, it is with the people making these surveys; that is not our problem to fix.

Moving past that, my initial problem with this edit is simple: the legal/citizenship-based definition of "Turk" is not considered an ethnic one by WP:RS. The citizenship definition therefore should be excluded from the "ethnic groups" section of the infobox. Placing it somewhere else might be perfectly acceptable, but not there. If you are bothered by people with multiple identities not being represented, I believe some surveys include multiple answers for self-identification; I would be perfectly fine with the inclusion of such a source.

Also, I did not mean to say that you specifically were suggesting a Turkish origin for the Kurds. I am simply saying that that is the only way the citizenship definition of Turk can be viewed as an ethnic grouping. Uness232 (talk) 23:51, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Again, see WP:NPOV. There is no single definition of "ethnicity". There is no single definition of "Turk". If there is going to be an infobox, it should include multiple definitions. The alternative is omitting percentages in the infobox (like Germany). However, the footnote should stay after this line "most are ethnic Turks, while ethnic Kurds are the largest ethnic minority.[b][4]" in the lead. The footnote after population number "85,372,377[a][5]" should stay.

Also, the infobox was clear

"By citizenship:[a][5]

98% Turks

2% Others" Bogazicili (talk) 00:10, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

@Bogazicili I have read WP:NPOV before, thank you. There may be no single definition of ethnicity, but in its Turkish context, citizenship is never equated with ethnic categorization in mainstream scholarship; if you can find me examples of this being done (specifically the 98% number being used as an ethnic qualifier; i.e. something like "Turkey's population is 98% Turkish") in reputable academic journals, I will concede this point.

The information given in the infobox might have been clear, but because of the previous point, it should not be in the ethnic groups section.

All that being said, I see which footnotes you were talking about now; I have no objections to those two, and sorry for reverting them along with what I objected to. Uness232 (talk) 00:23, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

@Uness232:, citizenship is not equated with ethnic categorization. I put it in the ethnicity field, because I couldn't find a way to add a custom field into the infobox template. I'd have renamed it as "ethnicity/citizenship". That's why the clarification was to the right ("By ethnic background", "By citizenship"). Bogazicili (talk) 23:52, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

That 98% of residents of Turkey have Turkish citizenships is not sufficiently notable to include in the Infobox, and is a factoid that is rarely included in country infoboxes. DeCausa (talk) 23:57, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

Chipmunkdavis, sorry for random ping but we are discussing the issue you raised here Wikipedia:Peer_review/Turkey/archive3, care to comment? Bogazicili (talk) 00:14, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

It is absolutely wrong for Bogazicili to make this edit without consensus, it constantly violates WP:WAR policy. 176.55.188.95 (talk) 00:23, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

The infobox is now a mess and filling all these parameters makes it not necessarily better. Shadow4dark (talk) 01:02, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

Looking back at that PR and the article state at the time, my comment referred to specific phrasing in the lead which has been improved since then. This dispute seems to be about the infobox, which is a bit more tricky as there isn't really room to craft words that provide nuance. There probably isn't a perfect solution that fits all perspectives, especially considering this is a prominent page in an international encyclopaedia that will be read by many people with no background knowledge of Turkish demographics. CMD (talk) 02:23, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

Just stepping back from the detail, or at least the politics, and think about what readers might need or want. As a general statement, I don't think including the proportion of non-citizen residents of Turkey is a useful or interesting piece of information - at least for the Infobox. Except for countries like Saudi, it's not really a key aspect. One would expect to see the vast majority to be citizens. I'm not saying it couldn't be covered in the article text, but for the Infobox it needs to hit significant info only. DeCausa (talk) 10:27, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

Adding citizenship is useless, since wiki template uses ethnic groups, not citizenship. All those discussion about citizenship is purposeless. No reason for adding citizenship. And I do not even think tüik report of 98% Turkish citizens is a true number with all those refugees, etc. Beshogur (talk) 12:52, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

i agree. Lionel Cristiano^? 22:43, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

@Beshogur: Syrians under temporary protection is not included in TUIK population stats, it's in the footnote. Bogazicili (talk) 23:56, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

Uness232 Chipmunkdavis Shadow4dark DeCausa Beshogur Lionel Cristiano, should we keep ethnicity stats in the infobox given that "Turk" also has citizenship meaning? As previously mentioned, many countries do not have ethnicity stats in the infobox. Bogazicili (talk) 00:00, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

I would say yes - the ethnic make up of the country is a significant issue that global readership would expect to have info on given the longstanding coverage and controversy around the Kurdistan Workers' Party insurgency. That's the usual case where there is ethnic conflict - see for example Cyprus, Nigeria etc DeCausa (talk) 00:05, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

@DeCausa: This doesn't explain why you removed reliably sourced footnotes. User readability is a nonsensical excuse.

Also, looking to the Cyprus page, their demonym is "Cypriot", so saying Greek Cypriots, Turkish Cypriots etc works.

Same for Nigeria. It doesn't say 70% Nigerian, 30% Hausa. Bogazicili (talk) 00:39, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

Your post doesn't make much sense. We have an article called Turkish Cypriots and an article called Kurds in Turkey. The Infoboxes would just reflect that standard nomenclature. Nigeria is different. There is no Nigerian identity separate from the component ethnicities. That's a different scenario. The point is ethinicity not citizenship is dealt with in both Infoboxes because it reflects a real world controversy. They're tailored to reflect the actualities of those contries. that's standard for country Infoboxes - Turkey should have the same treatment. You seem to be tie ing yourself in knots over something that is actually quite simple. (Removing the footnotes isn't directly related to this thread. We've discussed your POV pushing on my talk page which is a different issue.) DeCausa (talk) 00:53, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

You seemed pretty hostile in your talk page and didn't provide adequate explanation. And, no, I'm not "POV pushing". You seem to not understand there is a difference between "Turk" and "ethnic Turk". Bogazicili (talk) 01:12, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

There is a difference between a Turkish citizen and an ethnic Turk. Is that what you are trying to say? Of course I understand that. The point is that the stats of the former are of no interest for the purposes of the Infobox whereas the stats of the latter would be of interest to a global readership. This latter point is what you seem not to get. DeCausa (talk) 01:21, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

1) Do you still maintain the nonsensical excuse that footnotes that are currently in the article impair user readability? Should I expect further reverts from you from the current version of the article?

2) Do you understand the word "Turk" is a Homonym? Indeed it does ALSO mean "Turkish citizen". Bogazicili (talk) 01:24, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

WTF?? How has that got any bearing on what we are talking about? DeCausa (talk) 01:30, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

@DeCausa: See below. Bogazicili (talk) 01:37, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

@Bogazicili When we are talking about ethnicity, the word 'Turk' never means 'Turkish citizen'; which is what the infobox section is about. Uness232 (talk) 01:52, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

@Uness232: This an assumption. This is an encyclopedia, some people will know nothing about Turkey. And again, many countries tie ethnicity to citizenship. Bogazicili (talk) 01:57, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

Have to agree with DeCausa here. Uness232 (talk) 00:11, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

Uness232 so you want to keep using single choice CIA stats as if there are no one who's both ethnic Kurd and ethnic Turk. Bogazicili (talk) 00:38, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

Not necessarily; I'm sure there are surveys with multiple ethnicities as a possible answer. I remember seeing one back in 2022. However, if that solution is not possible, I would want the ethnicities to stay. I am also not particularly opposed to one concise footnote explaining how the ethnic definition is not the same as the legal term and demonym. Uness232 (talk) 00:46, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

I'd also prefer qualifiers such as ethnic Turks, ethnic Kurds, other ethnic backgrounds, not just Turks, Kurds etc. Bogazicili (talk) 01:18, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

ah. If somehow "ethnic Kurd" is better for you than "Kurd" then let's go with that. (It's a misconception that it makes a difference in the English language but if it resolves this for you, then no problem.) DeCausa (talk) 01:27, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

1) Great. And, of course it does make a difference. Many countries tie ethnicity to citizenship. Germans, French people etc just give citizenship numbers, and ethnicity was omitted in their country articles. So saying 70% German, 30% X can mean 70% German citizen and 30% foreign citizens. Saying 70% "ethnic German" is completely different.

2) And I'm asking again: "Do you still maintain the nonsensical excuse that footnotes that are currently in the article impair user readability? Should I expect further reverts from you from the current version of the article?" I'm trying to improve the article and I don't want to deal with nonsensical time-consuming full reverts. Bogazicili (talk) 01:36, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

1) It doesn't make a difference because the parameter in the Infobox is "Ethnic group". You've completely misunderstood the situation. Neither France nor Germany have the Ethnic group parameter completed in their infoboxes - which doesn't surprise me as the ethnic grouping doesn't have the same significance in those countries as in Turkey. Anyway, it doesn't matter now if you're happy with that wording. (just so you know, someone will rightly say that referencing "ethnic Turk" under a heading of "ethnic groups" is a redundancy.)

2) I couldn't give a shit. It's unnecessary clutter and better out than in but it wasn't the target of my revert which was the even worse clutter of the citizenship info that you put in. Just collateral damage but i wasn't sorry to see it go. If you want to keep that sort of pointlessness in i'm certainly not going to waste time removing it. DeCausa (talk) 01:51, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

1) Not redundant for previously explained reasons.

2) Great, we established you don't "give a shit" and make full reverts, and you don't care about "collateral damage". Hopefully this won't repeat in the future. The article is currently in a bad shape and requires lots of work. I just don't want to waste too much time to nonsensical time-consuming full reverts. Bogazicili (talk) 02:00, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

I'm not letting that go. It is utterly redundant. Uness232 has just made the exact same point to you. You don't seem to understand that under the heading "ethic groups" the only criteria for inclusion is ethnicity not citizenship. It's irrelevant how the country in question defines citizenship. This has become so tedious I'm ok with you adding the word "ethnic" in but i would say it's an almost a near certainty that someone will take it out because it's redundant. And as far as your second point is concerned, yes i will make a "full" revert when you make a poor quality edit even when some of your edit is marginally less poor quality than other aspects. None of your nedit was worthwhile or improved the article. DeCausa (talk) 02:11, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

And, again, some countries do tie ethnicity to citizenship, whereas other countries officially collect ethnicity/race stats. This issue was also commented in Wikipedia:Peer_review/Turkey/archive3 Bogazicili (talk) 02:17, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

So what? That's not the point. I give up. Seriously. DeCausa (talk) 02:21, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

The point that approx 4 million Syrians under temp protection is not included in the official population number of ~85 million is also important and was in the footnote. But I'm sure you don't "give a shit" either. Bogazicili (talk) 02:29, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

@Bogazicili Countries do not tie ethnicity to citizenship. Many countries are named after a single, usually majority ethnic group, causing their demonyms to be used in two different senses: one ethnic, and the other legal. Turkey is one of these countries. Some nationalist political movements in Turkey might try to impose a top-down 'fusion' of those two senses aiming for the assimilation of other ethnic groups, but those two senses remain separate in WP:RS, with only one being referred to as ethnicity.

And by the way, calling people "ethnic X" in an infobox section called "ethnic groups" is a redundancy at best. Uness232 (talk) 02:34, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

@Uness232: This started to become like a grandpa/uncle debate (this makes more sense in Turkish). No one is saying Kurdish ethnicity doesn't exist. You are arguing against a point I didn't make. Btw, there are also "nationalist political movements", or far right movements, that think ethnicity is all about "blood" in the world. My issue is with the oversimplification in the infobox. And this is WP:RS. Kirişci, Kemal; Winrow, Gareth M. (1997). The Kurdish Question and Turkey: An Example of a Trans-state Ethnic Conflict, p. 121:

However, in the case of Turkey, this inevitably raises the question of who is a Turk. Does the label 'Turk' refer to an ethnic background or to citizenship? How individuals perceive themselves is important. As noted earlier, individuals may perceive that they have a multiple identity. Which identity a person may choose to stress could be dependent on a particular context. And the largely psychological 'boundaries' between ethnic groups are not fixed. Different generations within a certain family could thus perceive themselves as either Kurdish or Turkish, or they may feel that they belong to both identities. A Kurd could consider him/herself to be a member of a specific tribe, hold a Kurdish ethnic identity and also feel him/ herself to be a Turkish citizen. On the other hand, a Kurd who is a citizen of Turkey may reject a Turkish identity in any form. Therefore someone like Hikmet Çetin would consider himself an ethnic Kurd of Turkish nationality (citizenship). He would regard himself as a Turkish Kurd. There are a number of Kurds, though, who not only refuse a Turkish identity in any form, but also publicly take offence against Hikmet Çetin for holding a multiple identity

Bogazicili (talk) 08:41, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

It can also be written in other sections other than the information box. Lionel Cristiano^? 00:27, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

That's the point. The country infobox is very rigid by consensus, and well-defined parameters should not be hijacked for information that is misplaced under that header (unless there a good reason and local consensus for it). I deliberately say "hijacked" because citizenship is not ethnicity. This is also the case when a term is used at different levels with different meanings. Turkey is no different from many other countries in this respect. There was a time when the national/citizenship definition was considered exclusive, and merely assertively self-identifying as anything else but Turkish was considered high treason at some point in the dark history of late 20th-century Turkey (at least for certain ethnic groups). But that doesn't mean that the Turkish constitution defines "Ethnicity" at any point–it deliberately doesn't do so to emphasize national unity over ethnic diversity.

The label "Ethnic groups" makes it inappropriate per se to include citizenship data within it. And our standard country infobox doesn't give room for the latter data. Even in extreme cases like the UAE with a very high proportion of non-citizen residents, we don't have citizenship stats in the infobox.

As for the same data (notes + sources) in the lede, I have no objection to their inclusion, although I don't consider them super-relevant here unless you also mention the negative impact that enforcement of this definition on Turkish citizens from a non-Turkish ethnic background has had in course of modern Turkish history. NB that's me; Uness232 and DeCausa might see things differently, so I'd advise not to restore anything. I have restored the stable version, since you have completely ignored the objections by two other editors in an ongoing discussion. –Austronesier (talk) 08:41, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

@Austronesier: are you even aware what you reverted? Look at the previous version again. Bogazicili (talk) 08:44, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

Very much so: The misplaced sentence Turkish constitution defines all citizens as “Turks” in the note in the infobox "Ethic groups", and the trivial statement that Turkish citizens self-identify ethnically the way they like. –Austronesier (talk) 08:52, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

@Austronesier: As mentioned, no one including Uness232 and DeCausa objected to the footnotes. You also deleted the following footnote:

"Total Population: 85,372,377

Foreign Population: 1,570,543 (excludes "Syrians under temporary protection" and "foreigners holding visas or residence permits shorter than 90 days")

Turkish citizens: 83,801,834"

I guess the fact that almost 4 million Syrians under temporary protection is not included in official population number of ~85 million is also "trivial".

So let me ask again, are you even aware what you reverted? Bogazicili (talk) 08:56, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

And you are aware that the figure of 1,570,543 is not mentioned elsewhere in the article? For the implications of this, I count on your awareness of WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE. –Austronesier (talk) 09:08, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

I'm slowly improving the article from top to bottom. I would have gotten to it when I come to the demography section. But again, no one is objecting to footnotes. You deleted reliably sourced information for no reason. Bogazicili (talk) 09:10, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

None, except for the very substantial ones above. –Austronesier (talk) 09:19, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

Which is what exactly? Do you object to the footnotes? You yourself said you have no objection. Bogazicili (talk) 09:31, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

@Bogazicili This excerpt in no way supports your claim. In fact it draws the same distinction between the ethnic and civic-national definitions of "Turk" that I did. Nowhere in this source is the "Turkish" part of the "Turkish Kurd" is an ethnicity; in fact it points out how it is otherwise: Therefore someone like Hikmet Çetin would consider himself an ethnic Kurd of Turkish nationality (citizenship). See how the distinction is being made? There is a way in which people identify their roots and/or cultural affiliations (which is called ethnicity in this text, and can also include multiplicity), and their citizenship (which is called nationality).

I understand that you are trying to capture a complexity here; some people identify with two ethnic identities as well. However, Hikmet Çetin is not one of these people; he is ethnically just a Kurd, and by nationality a Turk. That is not the same as multiple parts of a family identifying themselves ethnically as Turks or Kurds. Uness232 (talk) 09:00, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

That's indeed the point. The ethnic and civic-national definitions of "Turk". Now if you just say 70-75% Turk, 20% Kurd in the infobox, without any footnotes or qualifiers such as "ethnic Turk", how accurate and complete were you? Bogazicili (talk) 09:04, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

Very, considering the section is called "ethnic groups", not "demographics"; though one concise footnote can be added to the section about the two definitions of Turk if deemed strictly necessary. You do not seem to understand that ethnic group refers specifically to people's sense of ethnic belonging; a "Kurd of Turkish nationality/Turkish Kurd" is, in the context of an "ethnic groups" section, a Kurd. And indeed some people might define themselves as both a Turk and a Kurd, and mean both in an ethnic sense, but you can not measure that with citizenship data. Uness232 (talk) 09:10, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

We can also add a nationality field like Spain. Right now the infobox is just giving the ethnic definition of "Turk", and ignoring the "civic-national" definition as you called it. I recently realised nationality was also an option in country infobox. They also completely ignored ethnicity in Spain article, even though there is Catalan independence movement. Bogazicili (talk) 09:19, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

Exactly!!!! This is an ethnicity parameter not a nationality parameter, which is what I, Uness232, and Austronesier have been trying to get you to understand for hours. The only relevance the info you want to put in is the little used nationality parameter. (France is a rare example). But there is no pint adding yet more clutter to the box so I'm against that. It's an incredibly uninteresting parameter and little used for good reason. DeCausa (talk) 09:24, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

I had already said if I could create a custom parameter, I would have renamed it ethnicity/citizenship. What you fail to understand "for hours" is just what I said. Giving the ethnic definition of "Turk" while ignoring the "civic-national" definition of "Turk" in the infobox. Bogazicili (talk) 09:28, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

It's not about ignoring it. It's about not needing it there. –Austronesier (talk) 09:33, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

This has become boring and too time consuming. Just trying to assess if we need Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution. Uness232, DeCausa, Austronesier, do you object to 1) footnotes removed by Austronesier [4] being added back? 2) object to saying "ethnic Turk", "ethnic Kurd" "other ethnic backgrounds" in the infobox, where it currently says Turk, Kurd, others? Bogazicili (talk) 09:39, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

I'm neutral on 1, I oppose 2 (i.e. I would want the terms Turk, Kurd etc. to stay as is). Uness232 (talk) 09:51, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

If you want something "boring and too time consuming", then Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution is it. Add perfunctory, and you'll have the full definition :)

@DeCausa at some exasperated moment above already has granted you "ethnic Turk", "ethnic Kurd" etc. OTOH, I think it looks silly under "Ethnic groups".

Another point is however the applicability of "ethnicity" to the entire population of Turkey. Many Turks that are not of non-Turkish ethnic background do not self-identify in ethnic terms. They mostly self-identify as Turkish by nationality alone; ethnicity is for the "other", so to speak. This is not Turkey-specific, but also applies to many other countries like Germany, Morocco (see discussion there about the proper ethnic labelling of the non-Berber majority population) or Japan. Most reliable sources use the "ethnicity" label for miniorites, but rarely for the "Turkish Turkish" majority. It is not a coincidence that in many articles, we find CIA factbook as the only source for the ethnic composition of countries. Better sources address this complex matter in a different way. Instances of the term "ethnic Turks" in reliable sources mostly appear in the context of Turkish minorities outside of Turkey. –Austronesier (talk) 10:08, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

@Austronesier: Can you answer to 1 and 2 similar to Uness232? You made a revert, but you refuse to answer simple questions. "Ethnic Turk" is used in the sources I have btw. Bogazicili (talk) 10:13, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

My answers don't meet your expectations or don't come in the shape you want to have them; you should accept that. Calling this "refus[ing] to answer simple questions" is very much your perspecitve.

Repetition is boring and time consuming, but here we go: 1. oppose the note in "Ethnic groups" in the infobox (for reasons stated above), but weak oppose the note in "Population"; 2. oppose for reasons stated above. –Austronesier (talk) 10:33, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

Great thanks. Conciseness is appreciated in talk pages Wikipedia:Talk_page_guidelines. Bogazicili (talk) 10:42, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

I went ahead and created a request in Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard. Bogazicili (talk) 10:54, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

This is a WP:1AM situation. Where I'm on this: (1) I'm now opposed to your footnote. Apart from anything else it's too reliant on WP:PRIMARY. I have a counter-proposal as a footnote, which is as follows: Turkish law does not recognise minority ethnicities. All Turkish citizens are deemed to have the legal status of "Turk", which is not considered to indicate membership of an ethnic grouping This would be cited to Bayir, Derya (2016). Minorities and Nationalism in Turkish Law. Routledge. p. 144. ISBN 9781317095804. (2) I'm opposed to add the word "ethnic" being add to each of the groupings. It's unnecessary and redundant as the heading of the parameter is "Ethnic groups". DeCausa (talk) 11:01, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

@DeCausa: anticipating a "friendly" reminder by @Bogazicili: what's your take on the note in "Population"? Oh, and I have rejected to continue at DRN, 1) because it's 1AM situation, and 2) because I don't see that the current handling of DRNs is done in an acceptable way. I haven't seen a place in WP where editors are treated more condescendingly. –Austronesier (talk) 11:08, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

@DeCausa: Here's a secondary source:

Heper, M. (2007). The State and Kurds in Turkey. p. 91

"On the other hand, the 1924 Constitution took the Turkish nation as an entity made up of all disparate elements, that is, both ethnic Turks and nonethnic Turks as well as both Muslim Turks and non-Muslim Turks. Initially, some deputies met with consternation the Article 88, which read, ‘The people of Turkey, regardless of their religion and race, are Turks’. One such deputy, Celal Nuri from Gelibolu, expressed his concerns as follows: ‘We formerly used the adjective “Ottoman”, and this applied to all the people.. Now we are deleting it. … All the people of Turkey are not Turkish and Muslim. What shall we call these? If we do use the adjective “Turkish” not in respect to them, how else can we refer to them?’ As a response to this query, it was suggested that from the point of view of citizenship, all of the people were going to be considered as Turks. This formulation was adopted, and the draft Article 88 was amended to read, ‘The people of Turkey, regardless of religion and race, are Turks as regards citizenship’.46 The makers of the 1961 and 1982 Constitutions, too, adopted this formulation."

Bogazicili (talk) 11:11, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

That's a non-sequitur. I've already given you the secondary source I'm proposing to be used and the text that should go with it. Can you address that first please. DeCausa (talk) 11:14, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

Your text is incorrect. There are official minorities recognized. Bogazicili (talk) 11:25, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

If that were the case (in the context of ethnic groups), then there would be no need for a footnote at all. DeCausa (talk) 11:30, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

The footnote and qualifiers is there because you were against adding nationality field like in Spain or France.

Recognized minorities are already in the article and seems well sourced: "According to the Constitutional Court, there are only four officially recognized minorities in Turkey: the three "non-Muslim" minorities recognized in the Treaty of Lausanne (Armenians, Greeks, and Jews) and the Bulgarians," Bogazicili (talk) 11:34, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

Your statement that the "footnote and qualifiers is there because you were against adding nationality field" is patently untrue. You were pushing both well before you raised or even became aware of the nationality parameter. The Lausanne minorities are a complicated issue - the recognition is arguably about religion etc. But see my broader response below. DeCausa (talk) 21:07, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

I support DeCausa's note. It covers the citizenship aspect, but its focus is explicitly on ethnicity and the way it is official handled in Turkey. –Austronesier (talk) 11:21, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

I'm withdrawing my footnote proposal. On reflection, the Turkish state's attitude to the recognition of ethnic minorities is far too complicated to cover in a footnote. See for example Prof Arndt Künnecke's paper here on the complexities of the issue. That was 2013, and it's got even more idiosyncratic since then with some of the developments on the attitude to the Kurds. It needs an article to cover it not a footnote - and our Minorities in Turkey does a poor job of it as far as I can see. The Infobox needs to stick to simple positions. The RS given a consistent view of the ethnic groups of Turkey which is what we have in the Infobox. The twists and turns of the Turkish legal and governmental position is too idiosyncratic and too much of an outlier to attempt to address in the Infobox. DeCausa (talk) 21:07, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

Yes, complexity is a good reason for treating things not as infobox matter. Lack of robustness of data is another one. How consistient really are RS about figures for ethnic minorites? The only consistency I can find is that all good sources agree that most ethnic figures are based on "intuitive guesses" (per Kirisci & Winrow (2013), The Kurdish Question and Turkey: An Example of a Trans-state Ethnic Conflict). However, the entry for Kurds (19%) based on CIA factbook feigns a precision that is in sharp constrast to what reliable scholarly sources say. I don't want to remove the ethnic composition from the infobox, but this is actually a clear case of {{bcn}}. –Austronesier (talk) 21:38, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

It seems like a reasonable number but I doubt they have that precision. Even some publicly available data is incorrect in the The World Factbook by the way, such as fertility rate. Bogazicili (talk) 19:03, 7 April 2024 (UTC) Bump Bogazicili (talk) 12:49, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Classical antiquity

Austronesier and Khirurg, this article is part of Wikipedia Core Contest. Would you mind discussing your edits here so the article doesn't get locked?

First of all, there are waves of Greek settlement: 3 or 4 settlements before 1200 BC, around 1000 BC, and in 750–480 BC. With the way you are adding your sentences, it is not inline with the chronology. Also the paragraph is 157 words now. Bogazicili (talk) 18:11, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

This sentence is unnecessarily long: These eastern Greek settlements played a vital role in shaping the Archaic Greek civilization; important cities included Miletus, Ephesus, Smyrna (now İzmir) and Byzantium (now Istanbul), the latter founded by Greek colonists from Megara in the seventh century BCE. Why repeat Greek settlements and Greek colonists? Megara is also mentioned in the paragraph. Bogazicili (talk) 18:13, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

"important" in "important cities" is unnecessary per MOS:PEACOCK Bogazicili (talk) 18:17, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Miletus is also repeated twice, why? Before 1200 BC, there were four Greek-speaking settlements in Anatolia, including Miletus. Around 1000 BC, Greeks started migrating to the west coast of Anatolia. These eastern Greek settlements played a vital role in shaping the Archaic Greek civilization; important cities included Miletus... Bogazicili (talk) 18:29, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

WP:FIXIT. And I hit the road until the contest is over. –Austronesier (talk) 18:35, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

All of this is fixable. The sentences Before 1200 BC, there were four Greek-speaking settlements in Anatolia, including Miletus., Greeks colonists mixed with native Anatolians... and Influence of Greek communities were mostly limited to western coast of Anatolia... are all non-essential and can easily be removed. The last is not even strictly true, since a large number of colonies were founded by Miletus on the Black Sea coast and by several other city states on the southern coast well before Alexander. For the purposes of the history of Turkey, the main points are that a) There were several waves of Greek settlement, first by the Myceneans, then the main wave in 1000 BC following the Mycenean collapse, and then the 750-480 BC wave, that b) Numerous important cities were founded by these colonies, especially Smyrna/Izmir and Byzantium/Istanbul, and c) Miletus played an outsize role in philosophy, d) the two wonders of the world. I will draft something in the talkpage shortly. Khirurg (talk) 23:27, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Proposal

Beginning in the Mycenean period, there were several waves of Greek settlement on the coast of Anatolia, with a major wave around 1000 BC. The settled regions were named Aeolis, Ionia, and Doris, after the specific Greek groups that settled them. Numerous important cities were founded by these colonists, such as Miletus, Ephesus, Halicarnassus, Smyrna (now İzmir) and Byzantium (now Istanbul), the latter founded by Greek colonists from Megara in c. 667 BC. Some of these cities, in particular Miletus, went on to found numerous colonies of their own on the coasts of the Black Sea starting 750 BC. Miletus was also home to the Ionian school of philosophy, and many of the most prominent pre-Socratic philosophers lived in Miletus. Two of the Seven Wonders of the Ancient World, the Temple of Artemis in Ephesus, and the Mausoleum of Halicarnassus, were located in these cities. Khirurg (talk) 23:34, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

That is OR, so wouldn't work. Bogazicili (talk) 03:17, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Which part is OR? Khirurg (talk) 03:53, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

It doesn't begin in Mycenean period and there was no "major wave" around 1000 BC. The balance in the rest is also off.

We can simply switch to The History of Turkey by Douglas Howard, and just condense the first paragraph to what is covered in that source. We'd also reduce the length of the article. I had used Oxford Handbook of Ancient Anatolia only because there was additional information there before I edited. Bogazicili (talk) 04:06, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Actually if this issue is that confusing, we should definitely make this clear.

The only clear evidence we have for significant Mycenaean settlement anywhere in the Near Eastern region is at Miletus on the southwestern Anatolian coast, at the mouth of the Maeander River, and at the site now called Musgebi, further to the south, where a large number of Late Helladic IIIA–C chamber tombs have come to light (Mee 1978 :137–42).

p. 369

So we have 3 or 4 (Encyclopedia Britannica source) Mycenean era settlements in Anatolia. Bogazicili (talk) 06:07, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Comment It seems like the above proposed wording is based on this quote from the Britannica source: The major Greek settlement of Anatolia’s west coast belongs to the Dark Age (c. 1200–c. 1000), which is followed by In contrast to the at best sporadic colonization of the Mycenaean period, the movement (referring to the Dark Ages 1200-1000 BC) has all the characteristics of a migration. Piccco (talk) 11:19, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Correct, thank you Piccco for pointing that out. While the Mycenean settlement is definitely limited compared to subsequent waves, it is well documented. Khirurg (talk) 15:46, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Britannica is a tertiary source. WP:RS: Wikipedia articles should be based mainly on reliable secondary sources, i.e., a document or recording that relates to or discusses information originally presented elsewhere.

Encyclopedia Britannica also says this: Before the Greek migrations that followed the end of the Bronze Age (c. 1200 BCE), probably the only Greek-speaking communities on the west coast of Anatolia were Mycenaean settlements at Iasus and Müskebi on the Halicarnassus peninsula and walled Mycenaean colonies at Miletus and Colophon. [5]

This is already in this article. More sources:

In the river valleys of the Aegean shores, Greek migrations had begun around 1000 BCE. At first, these settlements were poor agricultural villages with singleroom, mud-brick houses. By the seventh century, these eastern Greek settlements grew more prosperous, expanding northward along the coast, and took the lead in building a powerful Greek civilization in the Aegean. p. 27 (Author: https://calvin.edu/directory/people/douglas-howard)

The above quote from Oxford Handbook of Ancient Anatolia is also clear.

As such, the wording proposed above is OR. Given this issue seems to confuse even experienced editors, it should be mentioned clearly. There were only 3 or 4 Mycenaean settlements. And that is what this article should say. Bogazicili (talk) 18:13, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Unless there is a source that contradicts above of course. Khirurg and Piccco, if you have sources that contradict above, can you please provide them with page numbers and quotes? Bogazicili (talk) 19:16, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Even if we agree that there were only 4 settlements, those still count and indicate Mycenan presence in Anatolia. So it is correct to state that Beginning in the Mycenean period... Unless of course you are trying to argue that the presence of Mycenean settlements in Anatolia contradicts Mycenean presence in Anatolia. The other source you are quoting is a generalist history of modern Turkey, not a source that focuses on Anatolia. It is better to use academic sources that specialize on Anatolia, e.g. the Oxford Handbook of Anatolia, p. 753 By 900 b.c.e. , Greek settlements stretched from the entrances of the Hellespont to the peninsula of Knidos. Aeolian speakers possessed the shores of the Troad, Aeolis, and the island of Lesbos. Many of the communities of the southern Troad or Aeolis were dependent territories ( peraea ) of either Mytilene or Methymna on the island of Lesbos. Ionians settled thickly on the shores from Phocaea to Miletos and on the two great islands Chios and Samos; Dorians settled the shores between the two southern peninsulae of Halicarnassus and Knidos, and the islands of Kos and Rhodes.. But in any case it doesn't contradict the fact that there was a major migration of Greeks to Anatolia around 1000 BC, something which is well documented. Khirurg (talk) 19:23, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Why say "Beginning in the Mycenean period", when you can say there were 3 or 4 settlements before 1200? It seems unnecessarily misleading. And the point seems to confuse even experienced editors like yourself.

Also given what Howard says above, it would not be in line with WP:NPOV

For the "major wave", we've been over that already [6] [7]. If the source says It is impossible to estimate the scale of Greek migrations after the collapse of the Mycenaean kingdoms (and that is from Oxford Handbook of Anatolia you recommended above), you can't add "large scale" or "major wave". Do you have any source for the "major wave" part? Can you please provide it with page number and quote? Bogazicili (talk) 19:33, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Here's the full quote pp. 752-753:

The arrival of the Greeks on the shores of Asia Minor was thus associated by later Classical authors with the downfall of the heroic kingdoms of the Mycenaean age ... It is impossible to estimate the scale of Greek migrations after the collapse of the Mycenaean kingdoms.

Bogazicili (talk) 19:48, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Here's another 2020 source [8] in [9]:

The collapse of the Mycenaean and Hittite Empires in the twelfth century ushered in the Iron Age. [p. 224]

That people could and did move around the Aegean in the Early Iron Age is highly probable. That some “Greek” populations made their way to Anatolia is equally plausible, although it seems unlikely this was as part of an organized migration wave. More probable is a gradual, protracted process that involved interaction between various different population groups, resulting in later Iron Age periods in emergent new identities....Nevertheless, it is apparent that the focus of early Greek activity is on the west coast. Continuity of occupation from the Late Bronze Age and into the Early Iron Age is hinted at through the presence of twelfth‐century BC ceramics, notably from Ephesos, Miletos, and the Dorian region [p. 225]

Again, 12th century BC and diverse population are noted above. This is in line with what we have in this article. Bogazicili (talk) 20:30, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Arbitrary break

Proposal by Khirurg copied from above: Beginning in the Mycenean period, there were several waves of Greek settlement on the coast of Anatolia, with a major wave around 1000 BC. The settled regions were named Aeolis, Ionia, and Doris, after the specific Greek groups that settled them. Numerous important cities were founded by these colonists, such as Miletus, Ephesus, Halicarnassus, Smyrna (now İzmir) and Byzantium (now Istanbul), the latter founded by Greek colonists from Megara in c. 667 BC. Some of these cities, in particular Miletus, went on to found numerous colonies of their own on the coasts of the Black Sea starting 750 BC. Miletus was also home to the Ionian school of philosophy, and many of the most prominent pre-Socratic philosophers lived in Miletus. Two of the Seven Wonders of the Ancient World, the Temple of Artemis in Ephesus, and the Mausoleum of Halicarnassus, were located in these cities.

Proposal by Bogazicili:

Before 1200 BC, there were several Greek-speaking settlements in Anatolia, including Miletus.[92] Around 1000 BC, Greeks started migrating to the west coast of Anatolia.[93] These settlements were grouped as Aeolis, Ionia, and Doris, after the specific Greek groups that settled them.[94] Further Greek colonization in Anatolia was led by Miletus and Megara in 750–480 BC; cities such as Byzantion were settled.[95] Greeks mixed with native Anatolians and city-states developed.[96] Influence of Greek communities were mostly limited to western coast of Anatolia until the time of Alexander the Great.[97] Thales and Anaximander from Miletus are also thought of first Western philosophers.[98]

Bogazicili (talk) 15:10, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Bogazicili, thank you for responding. Before I begin, I wanted to clarify that I quoted from the Britannica source because you had previously used it in the article yourself. I also wanted to say that reading the above discussion I have the impression that there isn't really a significant disagreement between us three. With good-faith I don't think it'll be hard to iron this out.

For example, what Khirurg proposed isn't really contradicted by the information that you presented: (1) it is true that there is Mycenean presence in the coast of Anatolia which occurs in the late Bronze Age. (2) It is also true, as you said, that these settlements are not yet as many and are restricted in the west coast. (3) Yet, this presence is already notable enough to be documented in many Hittite records (sf. Involvement in Anatolia). The following quotes seem to summarize and confirm the previous statements p.194 The Mycenean colonies of Anatolia were emphatically confined to a narrow coastal strip in the west. There were community-colonies at Ephesus, Iasos and Miletus, but they had little effect on the interior; no doubt the Hittite rulers resented Mycenean interference on the coast and took action to prevent any further encroachment. The Hittites must have regarded the Mycenean colonies as a thorn in their side, resenting Miletus (...); p.192 Beyond this core was a region so stronly acculturated with Mycenean elements that some scholars have proposed conquest, others large-scale colonization; this consisted of the islands ... and the south-west coastline of Anatolia.

So there's no contradiction or OR in saying that the earliest presence/waves etc. begin in the Mycenean period or something similar. Tbh, I don't really have strong opinions about the exact wordings, as long as the fact itself is mentioned, but in this case I do think that attempting to number the Greek settlements (3, 4 etc.) is very close to being OR. Most sources don't even attempt to do that; instead they just broadly mention "colonies", "settlements", "communities", "footholds" etc. and just go on to name a few, mostly Miletus. I don't think it's possible for us wikipedia editors to accurately count them.

Now regarding the word "major" for the following migrations, Imo it is accurate, but as I said, I don't have very strong opinion about specific words. The current version doesn't mention it and it's still okay. If anything though, the subsequent Iron Age wave is definitelly "larger" than the older Bronze Age one. Piccco (talk) 00:57, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

I updated my proposal (and also created a new section). It's pretty much the same with the current text. I dropped to 3 or 4 in case a source contradicts it. "Major" seems contradictory to me per above sources. We should also try to avoid MOS:PEACOCK. For your first point, the above source is very vague: Continuity of occupation from the Late Bronze Age and into the Early Iron Age is hinted....These are scarce finds, often associated with areas that experienced prolonged contact with Mycenaean Greece, perhaps suggestive of maintained and complex east–west exchanges Bogazicili (talk) 01:36, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

There is too much detail that is not relevant to the history of Turkey in your proposal. I also recall you complaining that the current paragraph is too long, and yet what you are proposing is just as long. The sentences Greek colonists... and These Eastern Greek settlements should be removed for brevity. Your proposal also contradicts itself, given that it states that there were Greek settlements before 1200 BC and then that "Greeks started migrating around 1000 BC". If they only started migrating around 1000 Bc, how did those settlements from before 1000 BC come about? Lastly, how is the influence of Greek communities limited to western Anatolia if multiple colonies were established in the northern and southern coasts as well? You proposal is not much of a proposal, it's just basically identical to what is in the article already. See below for a counter-proposal. Khirurg (talk) 14:22, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

My own version was quite concise before additions. Lastly, how is the influence of Greek communities limited to western Anatolia if multiple colonies were established in the northern and southern coasts as wel: They must have small towns compared to the population in other areas? Source says "largely (although not exclusively) limited" and text says "mostly limited". The explanation for pre-1200 BC is in the above source. Agreed about "These Eastern Greek settlements". We also don't need "after the specific Greek groups that settled them" due to previous sentence. Updated proposal 14:50, 28 May 2024 (UTC) Bogazicili (talk) 14:50, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Your version is factually incorrect. The large number of colonies established on the Black Sea coast clearly contradicts the assertion that Greek influence was restricted to the west coast. Virtually all major Turkish cities on the Black Sea coast started as Greek colonies: Trabzon, Samsun, Sinop, to name just a few. The wording after the specific Greek groups that settled them is necessary as an explanation to readers, otherwise the sentence makes no sense. Readers will be left to wonder why these regions were names as such. Khirurg (talk) 15:40, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

That's from the Oxford Handbook of Anatolia. You yourself said above: It is better to use academic sources that specialize on Anatolia, e.g. the Oxford Handbook of Anatolia? Bogazicili (talk) 16:09, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

That does not answer my question. Encyclopedias are not written by finding a source that favors one's particular POV and sticking with it no matter what. Not only do you completely fail to address my point about the Black Sea colonies, but the same is true of the southern coast: Pamphylia, for example, was heavily settled by Greeks longs before Alexander. Colvin, Stephen (2013). A Brief History of Ancient Greek. John Wiley & Sons. p. 84. "Herodotus and Strabo record the story that the Pamphylians were the descendants of Greeks who arrived with the seers Calchas and Amphilochos after the Trojan War.", John D. Grainger, The cities of Pamphylia, Oxbow Books, 2009, p.5 The settlement of Greeks in Pamphylia is traditionally dated to the post Bronze-Age migrations. While it is true that Greek penetration into the interior of Anatolia was limited prior to Alexander, the same is not true of the southern and northern coasts. There were multiple Greek cities on the northern, western, and southern coasts of Anatolia long before Alexander, and the sources are all there. Khirurg (talk) 19:36, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

None of what you quoted conflicts with "mostly limited to western coast of Anatolia". Mostly doesn't mean exclusively. Bogazicili (talk) 19:54, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Of course it conflicts. I have no patience for word games ("mostly does not mean exclusively"). Multiple cities on both the northern and southern coasts. "Mostly" is doing a lot of work here, misleading our readers by presenting a "mostly" false impression of the picture at the time. Khirurg (talk) 20:01, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

I don't think so, but we can ask in Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard Bogazicili (talk) 20:12, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Sure, we can do that. But your version contradicts even itself. If Further Greek colonization in Anatolia was led by Miletus and Megara in 750–480 BC; cities such as Byzantion were settled, where did this colonization take place? The Propontis and Black Sea Coast, i.e. not western Anatolia. When did this take place? Before Alexander. At a minimum, the article should not contradict itself. Khirurg (talk) 21:45, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

New proposal

Several Greek settlements existed in western Anatolia before 1200 BC, leading to interactions between Mycenaean Greeks and Anatolian peoples. Around 1000 BC, more Greeks migrated to the west coast of Anatolia. The settled regions were named Aeolis, Ionia, and Doris, after the specific Greek groups that settled them. Numerous important cities were founded by these colonists, such as Miletus, Ephesus, Halicarnassus, Smyrna (now İzmir) and Byzantium (now Istanbul), the latter founded by Greek colonists from Megara in c. 667 BC. Some of these cities, in particular Miletus, went on to found numerous colonies of their own on the coasts of the Black Sea coast of Anatolia starting around 750 BC. Miletus was also home to the Ionian school of philosophy, and many of the most prominent pre-Socratic philosophers lived there. Two of the Seven Wonders of the Ancient World, the Temple of Artemis in Ephesus, and the Mausoleum of Halicarnassus, were located in these cities.

This factual, concise, on topic, NPOV, and grammatically correct. As you can see I have adopted some of your verbiage. Khirurg (talk) 14:32, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

The fact that these areas are diverse are mentioned several times in Oxford Handbook of Ancient Anatolia:

Herodotus, as a native of Halicarnassus, brings first hand experience of the ethnic complexity of Caria, the region where migrating Greeks most intimately mixed with Anatolian populations [p. 22]

Ionians took refuge in Athens before their migration across the Aegean to the Anatolian coast, but points out that even those Ionians migrated without their families and took Carian wives by force after their arrival in Anatolia (1.146), creating an ethnic mix unacknowledged by the Ionians themselves. [p. 25]

Ionian and Aeolian Greeks, refugees from former Mycenaean kingdoms, had intermingled and intermarried with native Anatolians [p. 754]

Bogazicili (talk) 14:45, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Mausoleum at Halicarnassus was built under Persian rule, that's why that whole part is in the end of section. Bogazicili (talk) 15:00, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

So what? What does that have to do with the history of Turkey? Virtually all your edits and proposals are intended to minimize and dilute anything related to Greek settlement in Anatolia. Halicarnassus was a Greek city and the architects who designed it and built it were Greek, not Persian. The temple of Artemis was built long before Persian rule. Khirurg (talk) 15:35, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

My intention wasn't "to minimize and dilute". I'm going by the sources. Why do you want to ignore the diversity in Western Anatolia? Bogazicili (talk) 16:04, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

I will comment based on the two new proposals I've read:

1) The first sentence seems okay in both versions, Khirurg seems to also include the Mycenean-Anatolian peoples interraction; information which I believe Bogazicili wanted somewhere in the paragraph. I can see this fitting here, given the well-documented and extensive Mycenean-Hittite/Anatolian interactions. 2) Indeed, "started" appears a bit contradictory, so a wording that doesn't contradict the previous sentence (or even simply "Around 1000 BC Greeks migrated...") might be better.

3) I won't lie, a big sentence being about the "mix" of the imigrants who settle with the locals seems a bit weird to me; When talking about the movements of ancient populations, a degree of "mixing" (as in blood-mixing e.g. by intermarriages) is a natural process; I'm not sure why this is notable enough and what exactly it adds specifically here, and not in any other paragraph and other populations. A word like "intermingled" or "interacted" might be better too.

Perhaps the significance of the concept of the polis might be worth the mention? Btw, Bogazicili, I wouldn't say that the diversity of Anatolia is ignored in this article at all, as all the paragraphs that precede this one discuss exclusively the various Anatolian peoples. Only this paragraph seems to focus more on the ancient Greek component and influence in the region.

4) Regarding the "prior to Alexander" sentence, I kind of understand both sides: the "mostly limited" is in line with the given source, yet it appears as if it ignores the important colonies on the northern and southern Anatolian coast. 5) Lastly, perhaps mentioning the school of philosophy, as Khirurg did, and a few notable examples, as Bogazicili did, might be better? I don't have a very strong opinion about the two wonders of the world; they fit in both places. Piccco (talk) 18:42, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

3) This article is about Turkey. Carians were a population in Turkey. They were entirely in modern-day Turkey. So the fact that Greeks mixed with them is relevant. It's mentioned both in Oxford Handbook of Anatolia and A Companion to Greeks Across the Ancient World. My original wording was this: Greeks mixed with native Anatolians and city-states developed. This is concise, accurate and on-topic. I don't know why this information is trying to be supressed. Borrowing the term used above, are you trying to portray Greek settlements in Anatolia as "undiluted"? And similar information is actually already in other paragraphs.

4) It's what the source says. Our job is to follow sources, not to critique them. You are free to email the authors of the book and ask them. Bogazicili (talk) 18:55, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

I updated my proposal above. Bogazicili (talk) 18:58, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Your updated proposal is worse than before. Regarding the sentence Greeks mixed with native Anatolians... you even removed the part but maintained ties with their kin in mainland Greece and differentiated themselves from Anatolians, whom they regarded as barbarians, through the concept of the polis., even though is in the source. Quoting sources selectively is intellectually dishonest. Important cities such as Miletus, Ephesus, Smyrna and Halicarnassus should be mentioned. And the link between Smyrna and Izmir and Byzantion and Istanbul should be stated explicitly, not hidden from readers. The factually incorrect and contradictory sentence about Greek influence being limited to the west coast until the arrival of Alexander (despite the presence of multiple Greek cities on the northern and southern coast) needs to go as well. The sentence Thales and Anaximander from Miletus are also thought of first Western philosophers. is grammatically awful and non-sequitur, and my sentence about the pre-Socratics is broader in scope. Khirurg (talk) 19:43, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Also, the interaction between Greeks and Anatolians should be mentioned in the first sentence as in my proposal, there is no need to repeat it again with a new sentence about Greeks mixed with Anatolians.... Khirurg (talk) 19:45, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

I don't think it's selective or intellectually dishonest. I had reverted to my original wording, since you also mostly reverted to your initial suggestion. Interaction may mean trade relationship, whereas Oxford Handbook of Anatolia specifically mentions "ethnic mix". I'd be ok with "but maintained ties with their kin in mainland Greece and differentiated themselves from Anatolians, whom they regarded as barbarians, through the concept of the polis". Bogazicili (talk) 19:50, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Again with the exact wording of the Oxford Handbook. WP:CLOP. You also did not address any of my other points. Khirurg (talk) 20:02, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

No, it doesn't have the exact wording. You are welcome to give the page numbers and quotes above in Wikipedia:Copyright problems and ask if the current text is Wikipedia:Close paraphrasing. Bogazicili (talk) 20:11, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Not only that, but "mixed" has a very narrow meaning, whereas "interacted" or "intermingled" as suggested by Picco has a broader, more inclusive meaning, and includes other types of interactions, such as trade, cultural exchanges, etc. Khirurg (talk) 21:47, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

3) I still don't know how to feel about the the "mixing" part. Did the rest of the various and distinct Anatolian peoples not mix with each other? Why don't we mention this? Is this a unique incidence in history? Is there any particular reason why information about "mixing" is exceptionally notable in this specific pararaph but not in any other? This information appears to be WP:UNDUE and insisting on "ethnic mix" in particular is very close to being interpreted as POV. The 'renewed' (older) version is, in fact, not an improvement, because it was simply misleading. The source says that city states distinguished Greeks from the Anatolian people, they didn't appear as a result of their "mixing".

If we really are to keep this sentence though (part of which could actually be notable, like the city-states), an alternative NPOV wording like 'interacted' or 'intermingled' would be needed.

4) It is a fact that many colonies existed outside of the western coast (northern and southern coast). If we are to say that they were "mostly limited" in the west coast, then the former might also need to be mentioned somehow?

note I want to focus only on these two at the moment, because they seem to be most important issues. I think that if a consensus is reached on these two, the rest (e.g. the exact wording about the philosophers) will be much easier to agree on.

extra comment The most important colonies, e.g. Ephesus, Smyrna etc., of course, deserve to be mentioned. Piccco (talk) 23:06, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Excellent point about the "mixing" Picco. It seems some "mixings" are of particular interest to some people and need to be highlighted, while others...less so. I am now firmly against this "mixing" wording on the grounds of WP:UNDUE and WP:POV. Khirurg (talk) 00:27, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Now that I've looked into it more (and will continue), the sentence about Influence of Greek communities were mostly limited to western coast of Anatolia until the time of Alexander the Great. also cannot stand for the same reasons. From the Oxford Handbook of Anatolia, p. 29 The Midas of Herodotus’s narrative is the first non-Greek to dedicate offerings at Delphi (1.14),indicating how far Greek influence had penetrated into the interior of Anatolia by the early seventh century b.c.e .. This directly contradicts the narrative of Greek influence being limited to the west coast. The sentence is also undue and POV, in that again only the Greek colonies are singled out for "limited" influence. Was Persian influence limited? Was Roman influence limited? Why is it always the same culture that is "mixed" and "limited", but none of the others? It would be helpful if people actually read the source the used instead of cherry-picking those pieces that fit their POV narrative. Khirurg (talk) 01:11, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Influence in that offerings in Delphi is different than Greek language and settlements reaching the interior. I was referring to Hellenization. See below.

As for mixings, see the article:

• They mixed with Iranic-speaking groups in the area and converted to Islam
• Turkification continued as Ottomans mixed with various indigenous people in Anatolia and the Balkans
• there were Turkic/Turkish migrations, intermarriages, and conversions into Islam

For Romans and Persians: I hadn't done the Roman part yet. I wrote the Persian part from Howard 2016, which is more concise. I offered same option about this paragraph ("We can simply switch to The History of Turkey by Douglas Howard, and just condense the first paragraph to what is covered in that source"), you refused. Romans, Byzantines, Ottomans etc also have maps which show maximum extent.

As such, all implications above are baseless. See: Wikipedia:Casting aspersions This article is subject to 3 Wikipedia:Contentious topics Bogazicili (talk) 22:20, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

With behavior like this, it is impossible to reach an understanding. The text you have been edit-warring to insert was Influence of Greek communities were mostly limited to western coast of Anatolia Remember? Now that I am showing you a source (your own source) that shows Greek influence clearly penetrated to the interior, you are changing it to be about: Greek language and settlements reaching the interior. That's called shifting of the goalposts and is highly dishonest. As for the "mixing", the source only refers to the Ionians, nothing about the Aeolians and Dorians. So you can't use it to apply to the Greeks as a whole. Khirurg (talk) 02:17, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

Arbitrary break 2

Piccco, I'm honestly very surprised this ethnic mix issue has become so major. It's part of human history and happens now. There is nothing wrong with interethnic relationships.

However, if it's such a taboo, we can drop it. I don't care if Greeks mixed or not. I just thought it was a concise way to refer to diversity in the area in that time period. ("Greeks mixed with native Anatolians" is only 5 words.) Unless you noticed, I'm paying close attention to the word count. We can have a longer sentence about other people in the area. (see below: "Anatolian populations of Phrygia, Lydia, Lycia, and Caria")

For influence, see sources below. We can have a sentence such as "In addition to settlements such as ... [1 or 2 examples in Med or Black sea?], influence of Greek communities were mostly limited to western coast of Anatolia until the time of Alexander the Great"

Sources

Chapter 11 Anatolia chapter summary, page 221: What defines “Greek” settlement here, particularly by the seventh century BC, is the landscape’s location as both geographic and intellectual middle grounds. It is from this position that the developing poleis of Anatolia had freedom to experiment with new ideas and influences stimulated by direct contact with the Anatolian populations of Phrygia, Lydia, Lycia, and Caria, as well as increasing interaction with the Near East and Egypt. The period is characterized by fluidity and agency amongst its diverse peoples, of whom “Greeks” were just one. Influence: p 500 However, during the early Iron Age, Greek communities in Anatolia were largely (although not exclusively) limited to the western coastal region. Their cultural influence in the interior was relatively limited, only becoming dominant after Alexander pp 778–779 Thus the majority of traditional 'Greek' lands, including the coastal areas of Asia Minor, remained essentially Greek-speaking, despite the superimposition of Latin and the later Slavic incursions into the Balkans during the sixth and seventh centuries. Even on the Anatolian plateau, where Hellenic culture had come only with Alexander's conquests, both the extremely heterogeneous indigenous populations and immigrant groups (including Celts, Goths, Jews, and Persians) had become heavily Hellenized, as the steady decline in epigraphic evidence for the native languages and the great mass of public and private inscriptions in Greek demonstrate. Though the disappearance of these languages from the written record did not entail their immediate abandonment as spoken languages,...

For other issues, I'll respond later. I might take a wiki break. Bogazicili (talk) 22:20, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

No one is arguing that there were Greek cities in the Anatolian interior prior to Alexander, and nothing in the article even implies that. The insistence on the need to explicitly state this is bizarre and I do not agree with it. You keep repeating throughout the article that Greek influence was limited in the interior, even into the Byzantine period. For someone so concerned on brevity, this is odd. Khirurg (talk) 02:25, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

Hello Bogacizili. Regarding the mixings, as I mentioned, this was mostly a matter of undue weight, among others, but as you said, we can drop this, so there's no need to go deeper now. Reading this paragraph after a few days, I think it might be okay, given that it tries to summarize a long period from the Late Bronze Age to the middle of the 1st millenium BC. It seems to be condensed, including the most notable events/facts without much digressing. Piccco (talk) 22:25, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

Bump Bogazicili (talk) 12:48, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

RfC on massacres and genocides in the lead

In my personal opinion, the lede doesn't really need to include the genocides. For example, Japan's featured article doesn't mention the events in WW2. At least we should only say "Christian" instead of listing all the ethnic groups for the ones commited by the Ottomans. Perhaps even the ones committed to the Muslims are unnecessary. So, here are the options:

Option 1: "In the 19th and early 20th centuries, persecution of Muslims during the Ottoman contraction and in the Russian Empire resulted in large-scale loss of life and mass migration into modern-day Turkey from the Balkans, Caucasus, and Crimea. Under the control of the Three Pashas, the Ottoman Empire entered World War I in 1914, during which the Ottoman government committed genocides against its Armenian, Greek, and Assyrian subjects." (it will stay as it is)

Option 2: "In the 19th and early 20th centuries, persecution of Muslims during the Ottoman contraction and in the Russian Empire resulted in large-scale loss of life and mass migration into modern-day Turkey from the Balkans, Caucasus, and Crimea. Under the control of the Three Pashas, the Ottoman Empire entered World War I in 1914, during which the Ottoman government committed genocides against its Christian subjects." (shortening)

Option 3: "In the 19th and early 20th centuries, persecution of Muslims resulted in large-scale loss of life and mass migration into modern-day Turkey. Under the control of the Three Pashas, the Ottoman Empire entered World War I in 1914, during which the Ottoman government committed massacres against its Christian subjects." (more shortening)

Option 4: "Under the control of the Three Pashas, the Ottoman Empire entered World War I in 1914." (all the migration, massacre and genocides are removed from the article.)

Other: something else I missed. Youprayteas ^{talk/contribs} 17:54, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

Survey

• Comment, review of some of the country articles in English-language Wikipedia:
  • In the leads, United States doesn't mention Native American genocide in the United States.[10][11][12][13] Australia doesn't mention Genocide of Indigenous Australians.[14][15][16] United Kingdom doesn't mention genocides by Anglo settlers in North America and Australia. These articles do not even mention genocide in the body of their articles, which is a massive oversight. UK also might have had genocides in medieval times [17]. Overall, coverage of indigenous topics in English Wikipedia, such as those related to Unites States and Australia, could be problematic Wikipedia’s Indian problem: settler colonial erasure of native American knowledge and history on the world’s largest encyclopedia (also see Signpost response: [18]) [19][20]
  • In the leads, Canada doesn't mention Canadian genocide of Indigenous peoples. China doesn't mention Persecution of Uyghurs in China. Belgium doesn't mention Atrocities in the Congo Free State[21][22]. Spain doesn't mention things like Taíno genocide.[23] Russia doesn't mention Circassian genocide[24] or Holodomor.[25] Japan doesn't mention Japanese war crimes.
  • In the lead, France doesn't mention Algerian genocide[26], just notes defeat in the Algerian War.
  • In the lead, Germany mentions the Holocaust. But it doesn't mention Herero and Nama genocide. Israel mentions Nakba, but it doesn't mention Gaza genocide (see: Template:Expert opinions in the Gaza genocide debate)
  • In the lead, India notes "large-scale loss of life and an unprecedented migration" during the Partition of India without specifying loss of life among Hindus and Muslims. Bogazicili (talk) 19:19, 8 October 2024 (UTC) (added some of the potential sources, these do not necessarily show WP:Due Bogazicili (talk) 16:08, 27 October 2024 (UTC))

  These oversights are arguments for changing the leads to those country's pages, as I have recently done at Japan. It has no bearing here, except as cautionary examples of what not to do. Also, comparing the Herero and Namaqua genocides to the Holocaust in German history doesn't make sense. In the same way the lead does not mention every fact about a country, but does selectively mention the important ones, it also does not need to enumerate every genocide a country has perpetrated in it lead, only the ones that are especially significant. You would be hard pressed to argue, using only reliable sources, that the various genocides and population transfers of the early 20th century did not play an absolutely pivotal role in the formation and genesis of the modern Turkish state as we know it. In most of the examples you list, that is not so obviously the case, with the notable exceptions of the Nakba and Holocaust, which are both mentioned in their corresponding leads, and the ethnic cleansings and genocides in North America, which are not mentioned in the articles for Canada and the USA, but certainly should be. Brusquedandelion (talk) 05:18, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Genocides were not even mention in the body of United States and Australia. That is more problematic than the lead. It seems this was fixed in US article [27]. And I do think it's helpful to look at other articles for hints, especially FA ones. But we of course go by reliable sources for the actual content.

Now, for the lead of this article, please provide tertiary sources so we can assess WP:Due. You can use Google Books, Google Scholar, or the Wikipedia Library. Oxford Reference Online has access to lots of tertiary sources. Bogazicili (talk) 15:35, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

• I'm against option 3. "mass migration into modern-day Turkey" sounds too vague without saying "from the Balkans, Caucasus, and Crimea". It's only 6 more words. Bogazicili (talk) 19:29, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

Option 4 .... Should simply be removed. As other FA articles do.... It's a topic that needs further explanation then the lead can provide. On a side note should trim some of the random stats out of the lead WP:COUNTRYLEAD. Love the lead here....if ever a GA review is needed ping me will help.Moxy🍁 23:22, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

@Moxy I think WP:COUNTRYLEAD could be expanded to give guidance on the history paragraphs of the lead, something like: There should be a summary of the history sections and events important to the national consciousness, as the latter isn’t covered by MOS:LEDE Kowal2701 (talk) 10:03, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

Germany is a featured article that mentions the Holocaust in its lead, even though no one pretends a lead can do any real justice to covering the entirety of the Holocaust. It doesn't follow from that fact that Germany should avoid mentioning the Holocaust in the lead. Brusquedandelion (talk) 05:26, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

• Option 4, Ottoman Empire is plainly a separate entity than modern-day Turkey.--Ortizesp (talk) 16:55, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

  Infobox needs cleaning up in that case. CMD (talk) 06:03, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

  Are you saying you also support removing all other mentions to the Ottoman Empire from the lead? Should Italy fail to mention the Italian Renaissance or anything else that happened in the Italian peninsula before 1861? Brusquedandelion (talk) 05:28, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Comment it should absolutely be covered in the body, not removed from the article. It's the phenomenon of genocide denial that makes this more due than others (Armenian genocide denial). The Bangladesh genocide isn't mentioned in Pakistan, Russia doesn't include the Circassian genocide, China doesn't include the Dzunghar genocide, yet Guatemala includes the Maya genocide, Germany the Holocaust (Holocaust denial), and Israel the Nakba (Nakba denial). I'm inclined to go with Option 1, it flows well and is due weight imo. Kowal2701 (talk) 18:49, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

Kowal2701, this is RfC is about the lead. It's already covered in the History section. See: Turkey#Ottoman_Empire. Also, Israel doesn't mention Gaza genocide in the lead.

There is also Denial of genocides of Indigenous peoples. English-language Wikipedia seems to have issues too when it comes to covering genocides of indigenous people in English-speaking countries such as the United States. An example journal article: [28] Bogazicili (talk) 19:12, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

Thank you. The point that it's covered in such detail in the body sort of supports its inclusion in the lede, but it does take it out of context. I'll impale myself on the fence. Kowal2701 (talk) 19:14, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

• Option 4 per MOS:LEAD, and crucially MOS:LEADREL, which states clearly "According to the policy on due weight, emphasis given to material should reflect its relative importance to the subject, according to published reliable sources. This is true for both the lead and the body of the article. If there is a difference in emphasis between the two, editors should seek to resolve the discrepancy."
  In the body, there is a paragraph on the Ottoman-era genocides; that means, per MOS:LEADREL, that there should be a sentence in the lead. There is no need for more detail than that. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 08:42, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

  @AirshipJungleman29 If you think that there should be a sentence about it, wouldn't Option 3 be a more logical choice? Alaexis_¿question? 19:42, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

  The quoted material says that emphasis given to material should reflect its relative importance to the subject, not that the emphasis in the lead should follow any strict ratio with its emphasis on the body. It is categorically undeniable that the genocides, ethnic cleansings, and population transfers towards the last decades of the Ottoman Empire played a crucial role in the formation of Turkey as a state today, and this is supported by all the reliable sources. If you feel the emphasis given by the body does not reflect [the] relative importance to the subject of these events, that is an argument for improving the body. At any rate, as has been pointed out by Alaexis, if you felt it should be a sentence, then why not support option 3? I would like to note, though, that option 3 has a problem that isn't just about its length: it fails to use the word genocide. However much your logic fails to hold up to scrutiny, if we were to apply this logic consistently anyways, the correct conclusion would be a shorter version of 2 (with the word "genocide"), not 3. Brusquedandelion (talk) 05:33, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

• Option 1 or 2. The comparison with other countries is one way of looking at it but it's inconclusive. However the lede also contains plenty of stuff that is less notable than the early 20th century genocides. Alaexis_¿question? 11:32, 15 October 2024 (UTC)
• Option 1 The genocide of Christian minorities is crucial to understanding the formation of modern Turkey and its national identity, aligning with Wikipedia's policies of presenting significant historical events in the lead. The systematic removal of a major Christian minority during the late Ottoman and early Kemalist periods, aligns with neutral POV by not omitting widely acknowledged historical facts in the lead. Moreover, the ongoing destruction and re-appropriation/re-purposing of Armenian cultural heritage sites, is seen as a form of cultural genocide. Thus Armenian genocide is not only a historical matter but continues to have significant geopolitical implications today. The EU has placed Armenian Genocide recognition as a condition for Turkey's ascension to the EU, and it's also complicated normalizing Armenian-Turkish relations (see Zurich 2009 protocols). KhndzorUtogh (talk) 16:27, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

  The claim, The EU has placed Armenian Genocide recognition as a condition for Turkey's ascension to the EU, is incorrect. [29] Bogazicili (talk) 21:34, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

The EU has not officially put recognition of the Armenian Genocide as a condition for ascension to the EU; however, numerous EU officials have stated the converse previously.

In addition, the very article you shared supports the idea that the Armenian Genocide has significantly affected Turkey's regional relations with Armenia and also its own internal civil society. From the article you shared: "In Turkey, public debate on the issue [of Armenian Genocide Recognition] has been stifled. Article 301 of the penal code, on "insulting Turkishness", has been used to prosecute prominent writers who highlight the mass killings of Armenians." KhndzorUtogh (talk) 14:10, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

• Option 1 followed by Option 2. I would like to point out that the key difference between 1/2 and 3/4 here is that the former use the word "genocide" whereas 3/4 do not. Summarizing the difference between 2 and 3 as simply "more shortening", as the requester does, is fundamentally dishonest. It is the choice to discard the word genocide, and not the length per se, that is the reason why we should prefer 1 or 2. If OP were truly only interested in shortening the length of this text, they would have offered an equivalent to 3 that still uses the word "genocide" instead of "massacres". The former is actually the shorter word! Brusquedandelion (talk) 05:24, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

  The word "massacres" is more general and can include everything that has happened during WWI. Meanwhile genocide is used strictly for Assyrian, Armenian and Greek subjects. And massacres is a more neutral term to use for the lede. I know Wikipedia uses the word genocide but for the lede of a country I think massacres sums up the situation without causing trouble. Youprayteas ^{talk/contribs} 07:22, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

• Comment, WP:Tertiary sources to assess WP:DUE. The relevant Wikipedia policy here is Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view#Due_and_undue_weight (also specifically MOS:LEADREL as AirshipJungleman29 identified). WP:Tertiary sources can be used to assess WP:DUE. Below are 8 tertiary sources. 6 of them do not mention these issues. One (The Oxford Encyclopedia of the Islamic World) has a very short intro section where it doesn't mention these issues, but notes demographic change in a subsection. One (A Dictionary of World History) mentions in a very different way. There is also a timeline which I am not sure if it counts as a tertiary source.

Tertiary sources

Britannica has a very brief lead [30]. These issues are not mentioned: A long succession of political entities existed in Asia Minor over the centuries. Turkmen tribes invaded Anatolia in the 11th century ce, founding the Seljuq empire; during the 14th century the Ottoman Empire began a long expansion, reaching its peak during the 17th century. The modern Turkish republic, founded in 1923 after the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, is a nationalist, secular, parliamentary democracy. After a period of one-party rule under its founder, Mustafa Kemal (Atatürk), and his successor, Turkish governments since the 1950s have been produced by multiparty elections based on universal adult suffrage. Encyclopedia of the Developing World pp. 1575–1578 has 3-4 pages of entry about Turkey. These issues are not mentioned. Here's the relevant history part: World War I witnessed the Ottoman Empire’s last gasp as its alliance with Germany and the Austro-Hungarian Empire in 1914 proved to be a fatal gamble. Even as the Ottoman Empire disintegrated, the Young Turk Movement and its founder, Mustafa Kemal (later dubbed ‘‘Ataturk’’), spearheaded a Turkish Nationalist revival based on a Turkish ethnic identity rather than a multiethnic empire. Following the disastrous war, the Turks were given harsh terms by the Allies: not only were the lands not populated by Turks divided among imperial powers, but the Turkish majority areas also were to be partitioned by the Allies. Ataturk, who had emerged as a national hero, rallied the Turkish resistance and pressured the Ottoman government to relinquish its authority in 1921. ... I guess Library of Congress Country Studies can be considered a tertiary source. This is the book for Turkey [31] [32]. Neither the history overview[33], or the intro section[34] mention these issues. The Oxford Encyclopedia of the Modern World (accessible through Wikipedia library). These issues are not mentioned. Below is the relevant part from history in Turkey entry: ... Only with the rise of nationalism did these communities—which were never seen nor saw themselves as “minorities”—begin to chafe under Ottoman rule and struggle for independence. With the fall of the Ottoman Empire, the very existence of the Turks was in doubt. The victorious Allies did not honor the armistice borders that came to define Asia Minor or Anatolia and intended to give territory to the Greeks, the Armenians, and the Kurds, while having spheres of influence. Treaties signed during the war had already assigned the Arab provinces—Iraq and Syria—to Britain and France. Thus the Treaty of Sèvres (August 1920) left the Ottoman dynasty a small state in the center of Anatolia. However, national resistance emerged in response to the Greek invasion in May 1919, and General Mustafa Kemal (1881–1938)—who took the surname Atatürk in 1934—turned sporadic resistance into a movement. The national struggle against the Greek army ended in 1922. Ironically, the sultan opposed the nationalists, leading to the abolition of monarchy in 1922. The Islamic World: Past and Present (accessible through Wikipedia library). These issues are not mentioned. Below is the relevant part from history in Turkey entry: Ottoman Collapse and Independence. ... In the early 1900s, a group called the Young Turks rose up, overthrew the sultan, and restored the constitutional government. They held their power only briefly, however, as they joined the group of countries that lost in World War I. With the defeat of the Central Powers in 1918, the Ottoman Empire collapsed. Over the next five years, Turkish nationalists led by Mustafa Kemal fought the victorious Allied forces and the Greeks to establish an independent Turkish state. By 1923 Mustafa Kemal, who became known as Atatürk (Father of Turkey), had driven out all foreign forces and established the Turkish Republic. Atatürk believed that the new state could only prosper with the adoption of secular and modern reforms. He abolished the caliphate and sultanate in favor of an elected president and legislature. World Encyclopedia. (accessible through Wikipedia library). These issues are not mentioned. Very brief history part in Turkey entry. The Oxford Encyclopedia of the Islamic World (accessible through Wikipedia library). These issues are not mentioned in the very short intro part. Below is one of the relevant parts. Turkey One of the successor states created from the ruins of the Ottoman Empire after World War I, Turkey became the first secular state in the Muslim world. The new state was declared a republic in October 1923 after the defeat of the Greek army and of the sultan 's forces in a bitter civil war. The abandonment of the sharīʿah and the adoption of a secular legal system based on Western codes of law, as well as the declaration of a secular republic in 1928, were radical departures from tradition. The new Turkey was predominantly Muslim, with non-Muslims accounting for only 2.6 percent of the population in 1927. The source is close to 5k words, and mentions demographic change under The Early Republic section: ...The Islamic component of Turkish nationalism was bound to be strong because the majority of the new nation 's people were Muslims. The composition of the population within the borders of the new republic had changed dramatically between 1914 and the census of 1927; the non-Muslim population had declined from 20 to 3 percent and continued to decline thereafter... A Dictionary of World History (3 ed.) (accessible through Wikipedia library). Similar issues are mentioned, but very different from the lead of this article Below is the relevant part from history in Turkey entry: Modern Turkey evolved from the Ottoman empire, which was finally dissolved at the end of World War I. By the Treaty of Sèvres at the Versailles Peace Conference parts of the east coast of the Aegean around the city of Izmir (Smyrna) were to go to Greece, and the Anatolian peninsula was to be partitioned, with a separate state of Armenia created on the Black Sea. The settlement triggered off fierce national resistance, led by Mustafa Kemal. A Greek army marched inland from Izmir, but was defeated. The city was captured, Armenia occupied, and the new Treaty of Lausanne negotiated. This recognized the present frontiers, obliging some one and a half million Greeks and some half‐million Armenians to leave the country (July 1923). In October 1923 the new Republic of Turkey was proclaimed, with Kemal as first President. His dramatic modernizing reforms won him the title of Atatürk, ‘Father of the Turks’. This is a timeline, so not sure if it counts as WP:Tertiary. It's also from HistoryWorld, which seems non-academic.[35] Some of these issues are mentioned.

• • For the above analysis, I did keyword searches and read some of the relevant parts, but I didn't read the entire thing. Feel free to double check my work. The sources are accessible through Wikipedia Library. Or Google Books might give you page views for those that aren't.
  • The above analysis is also not comprehensive or systematic. When you type "Turkey" into Oxford Reference Online (which has access to lots of tertiary sources), there are lots of results. Obviously, I didn't go through all of those. I also had some of the other sources before, such as the Encyclopedia of the Developing World. Oxford Reference Online is a database available through Wikipedia Library. Editors meeting requirements of Wikipedia Library can find more sources.
  • More WP:Tertiary sources can be provided, so we can assess WP:Due. This was also not done in previous RfC 7 years ago.[36]. Because these events were more than 100 years ago, there should be enough Tertiary sources covering these time periods by now. This can be contrasted with the lead of Israel with respect to Gaza genocide. An argument can be made there for the inclusion of Gaza genocide into the lead without tertiary sources since the events are too recent to be covered by tertiary sources but they are important enough to be in the lead.
  • I had previously expanded this part of the lead with respect to loss of life among Muslims (and migration into modern-day Turkey)[37], because I believe mentioning loss of life only among Christians is biased.
  • Another relevant guideline is MOS:LEADLENGTH
  • TL;DR: Given I have 43% authorship of this article (which will probably increase as the article goes through GA and FA review), I'll refrain from making a strong preference. But given sources above, my weak preference would be Option 4, or Option 4 and another sentence noting overall loss of life and demographic change ("The dissolution of Ottoman Empire was accompanied by a large-scale loss of life and demographic changes"). Bogazicili (talk) 14:29, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

  In light of this, Support option 4. It’s given good weight in the body, but not WP:Due for the lede. I don’t see how anyone can argue the genocides we’re crucial to the founding of Turkey. It was the entry into WW1, which is due for the lede Kowal2701 (talk) 16:53, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

  Just the clarify, the above wasn't comprehensive or systematic. But editors can feel free to find more sources. Bogazicili (talk) 18:51, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

• Comment in regards to this. Tertiary sources aren't given priority in comparison to WP:Secondary sources on Wikipedia. Wikipedia largely is based on and prioritizes reliable secondary sources, especially when those are available in large quantities which is the case here. Due weight may be determined by WP:TERTIARY sources, though as the policy says tertiary sources "may help evaluate due weight, especially when primary or secondary sources contradict each other." I haven't seen contradiction here and because we also have so many secondary WP:RS available, we should use those to determine weight. Just a couple examples:

• Time magazine: : "Not only did that atrocity scatter Armenians across the globe but it continues to define regional dynamics. Turkish denials have effectively blocked Yerevan’s efforts to normalize relations with Ankara, which has backed Baku in its recent offensives, even holding joint military drills last October in Nagorno-Karabakh and Nakhichevan, another Azerbaijan-controlled region to Armenia’s west."
• Quoting from The Making of Modern Turkey by authoritative and specialist on the topic Dutch-Turkish historian Uğur Ümit Üngör: “The first set of population policies launched were forced assimilation and expulsion, but the outbreak of the First World War radicalized these policies into physical destruction. The genocide of the Armenians developed from this radicalization. But reducing the Armenian genocide to 'mere' mass murder would downplay its complexity. The genocide consisted of a set of overlapping processes that geared into each other and together produced an intended and coherent process of destruction. These processes were mass executions, deportations, forced assimilation, destruction of material culture, and the construction of an artificially created famine region."

The modern Turkish state is founded on genocide. This is something which happened only 100 years ago. The Genocide is notable for influencing regional dynamics and is such sticking point in Turkey. Even to this day it's highly relevant to Turkey, see Armenian genocide denial for many more sources - from the lede:

• A critical reason for denial is that the genocide enabled the establishment of a Turkish nation-state; recognizing it would contradict Turkey's founding myths.[38] Since the 1920s, Turkey has worked to prevent recognition or even mention of the genocide in other countries. It has spent millions of dollars on lobbying, created research institutes, and used intimidation and threats. Denial affects Turkey's domestic policies and is taught in Turkish schools; some Turkish citizens who acknowledge the genocide have faced prosecution for "insulting Turkishness". Turkey's century-long effort to deny the genocide sets it apart from other historical cases of genocide.[39]

In conclusion, there is nothing "undue" about keeping the genocide in the lede of this article like it was for years, as Wikipedia is based on secondary sources which we prioritize and which are ample for the topic of this RfC. And just because some tertiary sources don't mention something, we can't take this and imply conclusions, that's not how it works on Wikipedia per WP:SYNTH and WP:OR. Particularly as I said when we have an ample amount of secondary (highest priority on Wiki) sources to go from. KhndzorUtogh (talk) 15:40, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

It’s very difficult to determine due weight with secondary sources as they don’t tend to summarise Turkish history in a single paragraph. Could a compromise be to just include the Armenian genocide in the lede? Kowal2701 (talk) 16:10, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Under the control of the Three Pashas, the Ottoman Empire entered World War I in 1914, during which the Ottoman government perpetrated the Armenian genocide. Kowal2701 (talk) 16:15, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

I wouldn't mind your suggestion, out of all it's the most notable and relevant to modern Turkey. Maybe that should be another RfC after this one closes. KhndzorUtogh (talk) 16:22, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

If it’s no consensus Kowal2701 (talk) 16:28, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

"The modern Turkish state is founded on genocide."

No. Youprayteas ^{talk/contribs} 08:36, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

KhndzorUtogh, if you want to look at WP:Secondary sources for WP:DUE, you need overview sources about Turkey. For example, this Time magazine article you provided is titled "In the Shadow of War, Armenia Tries to Make Its Economy Indispensable". We are talking about the lead of Turkey article here. None of the other sources you provided are overview sources about Turkey. The closest is Üngör's book, but even this is not an overview source, such as History of Turkey. Other sources might say similar things about other countries:

The Cambridge World History of Genocide Volume 2: Genocide in the Indigenous, Early Modern and Imperial Worlds, from c.1535 to World War One p. 10 (chapter Introduction to Volume II). Bolding is mine:

This volume offers, besides other imperial expansionist cases such as those from early modern China and Japan, empirical evidence for Barta’s observation across five centuries of European settler colonial history. In Part I, ‘Settler Colonialism’, three chapters collectively survey the colonial histories of the United States, Australia, New Zealand and Southern Africa from the sixteenth to the early twentieth centuries. These chapters bring the many differences between these colonies to light, but it is what connects them that determines their histories as genocidal: the goal of imposing a new settler society on Indigenous lands. Further, these chapters articulate how genocide has shaped the nationalist historiographies of settler colonies.

Yet I do not see lead of above countries mentioning this. Bogazicili (talk) 13:35, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Kowal2701, so you think we should drop the following part: In the 19th and early 20th centuries, persecution of Muslims during the Ottoman contraction and in the Russian Empire resulted in large-scale loss of life and mass migration into modern-day Turkey from the Balkans, Caucasus, and Crimea.? This is highly biased, I am strongly against mentioning loss of life only among certain group of people. Millions of Turks and other Muslims died, and millions fled to modern-day Turkey as well.

Kaser, Karl (2011). The Balkans and the Near East: Introduction to a Shared History. Berlin Wien: LIT Verlag Münster. ISBN 978-3-643-50190-5. page 336:

The emerging Christian nation states justified the prosecution of their Muslims by arguing that they were their former "suppressors". The historical balance: between about 1820 and 1920, millions of Muslim casualties and refugees back to the remaining Ottoman Empire had to be registered; estimations speak about 5 million casualties and the same number of displaced persons

Paul Mojzes also called some of these "unrecognized genocide" [40] Balkan Genocides: Holocaust and Ethnic Cleansing in the Twentieth Century page 25. Should we also expect the above to be in the lead of every Balkan country?

The above is why I had suggested Option 4, or Option 4 and another sentence noting overall loss of life ("The dissolution of Ottoman Empire was accompanied by a large-scale loss of life" Bogazicili (talk) 13:35, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

• Comment, WP:Secondary sources to assess WP:DUE. This is also in response to above comment. If we want to use WP:Secondary sources, we should look at overview sources about Turkey, such as History of Turkey or Handbook of Turkey. We should also look at introductory chapters or summary paragraphs. Below are some examples.

WP:Secondary sources

The best example I can find is The Cambridge History of Turkey Volume 4: Turkey in the Modern World. It has an introduction chapter [41]. These issues are not mentioned. Some examples: The post-1908 period was also marked by the rise of the military in Ottoman politics, which, along with the strong state, would become a key feature of modern Turkey. The struggle for independence and Atatürk’s leadership during and after this war provides the link between the empire and the Republic. A close look at the crucial years of the 1918–23 period, however, shows that, until the very end, the outcome of this struggle was unclear and its unfolding was shaped by the contingencies of these tumultuous years. The degree to which this history was constituted through multiple negotiations among the representatives of many different groups, including an election that was held in 1919, when the empire was all but finished, is indeed remarkable. I said Library of Congress Country Studies may be considered a tertiary source above. But I guess it could also be considered a secondary source, as there is an entire book for Turkey [42] [43]. As I said above, neither the history overview[44], or the intro section[45] mention these issues. The History of Turkey, 2nd Edition. This source doesn't have an introduction chapter. I don't think it counts, but there is a Turkey Today section. These issues are not mentioned. Some examples: Perhaps better than anything else, Ankara epitomizes both the newness and the antiquity of Turkey. Although its roots reach back before the classical age, in a sense, the city itself has, like the country, emerged out of the momentous changes brought by the violence and suffering of the First World War. Turkey established its separate destiny through a bloody war of independence (1919–1922). In those years, General Mustafa Kemal led a movement of national resistance to an imposed peace settlement that would have divided Anatolia into foreign occupied zones. The Routledge Handbook of Modern Turkey. This has an introduction chapter [46]. I don't think it counts, because it talks more about the book such as The main objective of this Handbook is to serve as a major reference work that provides an overview of a subject area based on the findings of the latest research. The Handbook is not an encyclopedia or a collection of essays on a broadly defined topic.. In any case, these issues are not mentioned. The only WP:Secondary source I found with an intro chapter that mentions these issues is The Routledge Handbook on Contemporary Turkey (edited by Jongerden). The intro chapter is 8 pages and mentions these issues. I think now we can consider WP:Secondary sources to contradict each other and look to WP:Tertiary sources.

• • Again, for the above analysis, I did keyword searches and read some of the relevant parts, but I didn't read the entire thing. Feel free to double check my work.
  • The above analysis is also not comprehensive or systematic. Bogazicili (talk) 13:35, 29 October 2024 (UTC)
• Comment and response to [47]. There are at least three reasons to include the persecution and genocide of Christians in the lead section:
  • As per WP:LEAD: "the lead...should identify the topic, establish context... and summarize the most important points, including any prominent controversies." The issue of Armenian Genocide recognition is a notable controversy that continues to shape Turkish identity and its geopolitical relations with Armenia and the EU. This is evidenced by the fact that the recognition of the Armenian Genocide has been a sticking point in both Turkey's ascension to the European Union and in the 2009 Zurich Protocols. The Denial of the Armenian Genocide is so controversial that it has also shaped Turkish domestic policy, as evidenced by Turkish Penal Code 301. This is all summarized in Armenian genocide denial and in Armenian genocide recognition.
  • As I already said, Wikipedia largely is based on and prioritizes reliable secondary sources over tertiary sources, especially when those are available in large quantities which is the case here. WP:TERTIARY sources "may help evaluate due weight, especially when primary or secondary sources contradict each other." There is no contradiction here and because we also have so many secondary WP:RS available, we should use those to determine weight. Secondary sources are in vast amount about this topic, see a list here [48] (in oder to save space, I won't copy paste all them here)
  • And even if we just ignore all the secondary sources that are the highest priorty sources on Wikipedia, there are even multiple Tertiary sources that include the genocide of Christians when discussing Turkey:

• Yenen, Alp, and Erik-Jan Zürcher. "Fragments from a Century: A History of Republican Turkey, 1923–2023." A hundred years of republican Turkey (2023): 11-27.

The editors of this volume written by Yenen and Zürcher, both renown Turkologists, includes the Armenian Genocide

• Kanner, Efi. "Christine M. Philliou, Turkey: A Past against History." The Historical Review/La Revue Historique 18.1 (2021): 275-278.

The Armenian Genocide is mentioned as a "key date" in Turkish history within the first few pages of this book

• Historian and expert on genocide topics Uğur Ümit Üngör dedicates multiple chapters in The Making of Modern Turkey that a consistent thread in the history of the modern Kemalist Republic of Turkey is the persecution and genocide of the original Christian inhabitants.

• Finally, as specified in the chapter on Turkey's origins in this TERTIARY source "Most Turks have to wait until they reach university before they hear anything about those who inhabited Anatolia prior to the arrival of the first Turkish outriders. Peoples who pose an ideological challenge to the Turkish Republic—Greeks, Armenians, or Kurds—receive only a brief mention in historical narratives...Small wonder that Turkish versions of history sometimes appear as though the pieces have been forced into place." (page 16) There is a huge number of sources both historical and contemporary which emphasize the importance and effect that the the persecution and genocide of Turkey's original inhabitants had on the modern Turkish Republic. KhndzorUtogh (talk) 17:17, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for providing sources.

1) I think the first two can be considered solid WP:Secondary overview sources for history.

2) I don't think Üngör's work is an overview source, see the full title: The Making of Modern Turkey: Nation and State in Eastern Anatolia, 1913–1950.

3) This source is not a WP:Tertiary source. It's just a book review published in a journal. Tertiary sources are things like encyclopedias. Wikipedia is a tertiary source.

To find tertiary sources, you can use Google Books, Google Scholar, or the Wikipedia Library. Oxford Reference Online has access to lots of tertiary sources.

If you are unsure what counts as a tertiary source, you can ask it in places like Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard or Wikipedia:Teahouse. Bogazicili (talk) 21:28, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

• Option 1 per Brusquedandelion and KhndzorUtogh. – Olympian ^loquere 05:24, 5 November 2024 (UTC)
• Option 3, followed by options 2 and 1. I don't believe the ethnic cleansings inside and outside the Ottoman empire need to be discussed at great length, but they do need to be mentioned, as they shaped the ethnic composition of modern Turkey in a major way (far more significant than most of the examples provided of colonial powers engaged in ethnic cleansing in what is now another country; by the same logic, I would say they should probably be mentioned in the leads of the US, Australia, and Canada). In other words, the question of whether it is lead-worthy is not whether genocides happened, but whether they are an important part of the modern shape of the country. —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 20:14, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

  Compassionate727, not sure what you mean here.

  Turkey is not a settler colonial country like the countries you have used as examples. There are no sources that suggest this as far as I know.

  Modern-day genetic studies also show modern-day Turkish people have significant ancestry from populations going back thousands of years ago in Anatolia.[49][50][51] This is quite different than the non-native populations in the countries you gave examples of.

  Can you clarify what you meant? Bogazicili (talk) 14:12, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

  I wasn’t saying they are. Somebody early in the survey argued that genocides aren’t mentioned in the leads of many former colonial powers, e.g., France in Algeria. I was arguing the examples aren’t analogous because French genocide in Algeria is important for understanding Algeria, but not France; meanwhile, Turkish genocide within Turkey radically altered the ethnic composition of Turkey, and is important for understanding it. —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 15:25, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

  I'll add to this that Turkey is a settler colonial state:

  But that's beside the point: Turkey underwent massive demographic changes as seen by the proportion of Christians versus Muslims before 1900 and compared to now. It's important to mention when and why. It's as simple as that. Vanezi (talk) 15:57, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

  Do you have a reliable WP:Secondary source that says "Turkey is a settler colonial state"? I also see your sources were challenged in Talk:Settler_colonialism#Sources. Bogazicili (talk) 16:08, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

  What is wrong about those sources that you're asking me for "WP:Secondary source"? And the discussion I had in Settler colonialism involves that article section specifically, not something universal (the discussion still hasn't finished btw, temporarily put off by me for now).

  You made the claim Turkey isn't a settler colonial state, I've shown the opposite with WP:RS. I then said it's beside the point, which I still stand by, it's clearly beside the point for the same reason that the user you replied to agreed with me [52]. Vanezi (talk) 20:25, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

  The sources you provided do not say Turkey is a settler colonial state.

  They also seem low quality sources such as newspaper articles like Washington Post or Le Monde.

  Or they are WP:Primary journal articles. Provide a source such as this: The Routledge Handbook of the History of Settler Colonialism

  If this is besides the point, do not respond any further then. I had only asked for clarification to Compassionate727 about what they meant. Bogazicili (talk) 22:24, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

  comment removed, extended confirmed status required. See:Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard topic

  Aren't you topic banned? And why are you hounding me? You should find better things to do. Vanezi (talk) 20:11, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Compassionate727, have you read the quotes from WP:Tertiary sources above before making this !vote? Bogazicili (talk) 18:10, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

I had not, but now I have. I notice that while they don't specifically mention genocide, several of them mention related issues, including the Young Turks' and new state's emphasis on ethnic nationalism and the demographic changes. So I think that option 4 says too little. I'm not entirely persuaded that option three says too much—we aren't obligated to follow other tertiary sources—but could be satisfied with something intermediate, especially (although not necessarily conditionally) if the portion of the lead devoted to history was reduced from two paragraphs to one. I suppose I'll retract my second- and third-choice votes for options 2 and 1. —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 12:00, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Compassionate727, I don't think it's possible to reduce history to one paragraph. Pretty much everything there is in tertiary sources, except what is being discussed now and Göbekli Tepe part. For examples, Hattians and Hittites are mentioned in Turkey entry in Encyclopedia of the Developing World. Göbekli Tepe part probably needs to be removed, but it still won't be enough to condense everything. I had added Göbekli Tepe part myself, but it was before I reviewed tertiary sources.

As for option 3, I think it is too vague. Where did Muslim migration come from? It came from Balkans, Crimea and Caucasus. And the second part about massacres could be bad for article stability. People might edit war saying these were genocides, not massacres. As for the demographic change, there were other factors such as Population exchange between Greece and Turkey.

I guess we could say "The percentage of non-Muslims in modern-day Turkey was 19.1% in 1914, but fell to 2.5% in 1927". But this suggests only Christians died, which is simply untrue.

My previous suggestion was "The dissolution of Ottoman Empire was accompanied by a large-scale loss of life" in addition to Option 4. This would be similar to the lead of India. Maybe we can also add that Turkey emerged as a nation state or a more homogenous nation state. I am not sure. Maybe, we can mention Rise of nationalism in the Ottoman Empire. This is indeed mentioned in The Oxford Encyclopedia of the Modern World.

Kowal2701, what do you think? I think you are one of the few people who are not very involved in Turkey or Armenia-related articles. You also expressed concerns before [53]. What do you think of the above, and what do you think a fair solution would be for the lead, in line with the sources?

I'd also recommend both of you to read all the sources and quotes in this RfC (and not just the ones I provided). Also here are some of the full entries about Turkey via Wikipedia library: The Oxford Encyclopedia of the Modern World (genocide only mentioned as a link under "See also") and World Encyclopedia Bogazicili (talk) 15:57, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

For a summary of a summary (which the lead of an article like this is), I don't think we omit too much by leaving out the places of origin. That's what we have wikilinks for.

Currently, I'm considering a sentence along the lines of In the 19th and early 20th centuries, persecution of Ottoman minorities and immigration of persecuted Muslims contributed to the emergence of a nation-state in modern-day Turkey. (The part beginning with "emergence" feels clunky and poorly integrated with what currently follows, but something to that effect.) World War I feels unimportant apart from its proximate causation of the Ottoman Empire's collapse, and could probably be left to the next sentence. (Following Ottoman defeat in World War I, the Turkish War of Independence …). Honestly, that whole paragraph could probably be trimmed; there's currently five sentences devoted to the past 100 years, and a lot of it is wrapped up in details. (Do we really need to mention the Treaty of Lausanne by name? Is Turkey's participation in Korea, or neutrality in World War II, really of major continued significance for Turkey?) —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 16:19, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

I'd say your suggestion is WP:SYNTH. Lausanne is mentioned by name in tertiary sources. Bogazicili (talk) 16:28, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Most tertiary sources are longer than four or five paragraphs; I would say that inclusion in tertiary sources is not necessarily a strong argument for inclusion in the lead, unlike how exclusion from them suggests something is probably undue, just because they have more space to fill with details.

I have no immediate response to the synthesis question. —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 16:39, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

These are mentioned in WP:Secondary sources and WP:Tertiary sources. So that is a strong argument for inclusion. Per MOS:LEAD, we also need to summarize the body of the article.

Several editors also thought history paragraph had too much emphasis on the pre-Republican era, so that is why things like WW2 were added. See: Talk:Turkey/Archive_40#Too_much_emphasis_on_the_Ottoman_Empire_in_the_lede

As for WP:SYNTH, it wasn't a question. Your suggestion is simply WP:SYNTH and inappropriate. Bogazicili (talk) 16:47, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the sources. Annoyingly, I can't access [54] which looks super helpful. The sources generally omit mention of the genocides in a short history, however that seems unlikely to gain a consensus. I like In the 19th and early 20th centuries, persecution of Ottoman minorities and immigration of persecuted Muslims contributed to the emergence of a nation-state in modern-day Turkey. a lot as a compromise. It is also very educational and appropriately high level yet easily understood. I'd be surprised if there was any staunch opposition to that. Kowal2701 (talk) 17:19, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

I would say that's WP:SYNTH in its current form. Wikipedia:Consensus should be based on sources. Bogazicili (talk) 17:25, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

I think it'd be best to base this sentence off of Formation of the Turkish Nation-State, 1920–1938.

With the migration of the Muslim populations out of these lands, the religious composition of the empire’s subjects became more homogeneous—the Greeks and Armenians now constituting no more than one-fifth of the popula tion (ibid.).

The Balkan Wars (1912–1913) were certainly a watershed in the radicalization of the Young Turks’ ideas and policies. Faced with mas sive territorial losses and the wave of Muslim refugees from the Balkans, Ottomanism came to be seen as a less attractive and less powerful alternative. Even though it was not completely dismissed, following the Balkan Wars Ottomanism was increasingly relegated to the background while Turkist ideas came to the fore. The atrocities committed against Armenians reveal the tragic consequences of this radicalization.

On the whole, the atrocities committed against Armenians could be understood within the context of the process of imperial decline rather than as a long-term strategy that had been in place and that was metic ulously engineered.11 At the same time, it is equally important to emphasize the “long-standing affective dispositions and attitudes that had demonized the Armenians as a threat that needed to be dealt with”

Overall then, as Suny concludes, “the The Ottoman Empire 31 Genocide did not result primarily from Turkish racial or religious hatred of the Armenians . . . or from long-term planning by militant nationalists. The Genocide was, rather, a contingent event, initiated at a moment of imperial near-collapse, when the Young Turks made a f inal, desperate effort to revive and expand the empire” (1988: 17).12 The building of the Turkish Republic would follow from this violent history of homogenization.

Kowal2701 (talk) 17:58, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

These are good quotes. My reading of this is that the collapse of Ottoman Empire should be a separate sentence than proclamation of the republic. Merging everything together is very WP:SYNTH.

As far as I know, Young Turks wasn't part of Turkish War of Independence. Of course I'm hesitant in providing Wikipedia links since all these Wikipedia articles seem problematic.

If you look at The Routledge Handbook of Modern Turkey, these are separate chapters: The Young Turks And The Committee Of Union And Progress and World War I And The Establishment Of The Republic and The Turkish Republic

Kowal2701, also what about Population exchange between Greece and Turkey? 1.6 million people is a lot, given the population numbers at the time Bogazicili (talk) 18:49, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

How about covering the Young Turks in From 1789 onwards, the empire saw a major transformation, reforms, and centralization while its territory declined.? I'm afraid I'm not informed well enough to make a proposal.

The population exchange could be mentioned along with the genocides and Muslim immigration which all led to a more homogenous nation state, however it isn't mentioned in the above source as far as I can tell. Kowal2701 (talk) 20:39, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

I'd rather see the lead shorter, and would therefore prefer not to see the population transfer explicitly mentioned; I believe discussion of immigration and persecution includes that. Persecution of Muslims during the Ottoman contraction (which my proposed sentence links to) mentions and links to the exchange in the lead.

@Bogazicili: would replacing contributed to the emergence of a nation-state in modern-day Turkey from my proposal with "led/contributed to national/ethnic homogenization" (something along those lines), with the above source as a citation, address your synthesis concerns? Or would we need something more explicit? —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 14:32, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

Will respond to this tomorrow. Bogazicili (talk) 18:22, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

@KhndzorUtogh, what do you think of the above proposal, where persecution of Ottoman minorities is a link to Late Ottoman genocides, given the coverage of this in short form sources? Kowal2701 (talk) 17:21, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Compassionate727 and Kowal2701, sorry for late response.

Compassionate727, your suggestion is against WP:NPOV. Specifically it is Wikipedia:Cherrypicking. This should be obvious, just read your response again. Kowal2701 suggested something, and you rejected it based on your personal opinion. I agree the lead should be shorter but what is added or removed shouldn't be random or based on personal opinions. I believe your earlier suggestion was also based on personal opinion.

Kowal2701, see the response above. Both In the 19th and early 20th centuries, persecution of Ottoman minorities and immigration of persecuted Muslims contributed to the emergence of a nation-state in modern-day Turkey or led/contributed to national/ethnic homogenization are against WP:NPOV due to Wikipedia:Cherrypicking.

From the source Kowal2701 found, Formation of the Turkish Nation-State, 1920–1938 p. 4:

The narrative that follows reveals the multi-faceted nature of the nation-building process. The examination points out that the conditions of imperial exit are of central significance

Emergence of a nation-state in modern-day Turkey is complex, why should we randomly mention one or two factors in the lead? Why the randomness?

About the demographic change, here are some quotes:

The Cambridge History of Turkey Volume 4: Turkey in the Modern World

p. 16 The territorial loss averted in 1856 occurred in the 1870s. Revolt broke out in Herzegovina in 1874 and spread to Bosnia, Montenegro and Bulgaria by 1876. The Ottoman government, having just suspended payment on its foreign debt, had to face this crisis without European support.10 Ottoman efforts to contain the situation raised European outcries against massacres of Christians, even as counter-massacres in the Balkans began to flood Istanbul with Muslim refugees, whose plight Europeans ignored. p. 175-177 Introduction: from the late Ottoman period to the Turkish Republic The Turkish Republic and its predecessor state, the Ottoman Empire, have been deeply shaped by migration in its many variations. The end of the Ottoman Empire was particularly marked by the forced displacement of people. As nationalism set out to establish homogenous national identities, the multi-ethnic and multicultural order of the Ottoman Empire was undermined.2 The collapse of the empire and the rise of nationalism, especially in Eastern Europe and the Balkans,were characterised by the ‘un-mixing’ of peoples3 and the dislocation of large numbers of Christians, Jews and Muslims.4 These displaced people came from a great variety of ethnic groups, including Armenians, Bosnians, Bulgarians, Circassians, Greeks, Kurds, Pomaks, Tatars and Turks. The population shifts of the Balkan and First World Wars were followed by a compulsory exchange of population between Greece and the new Turkish Republic, which saw the arrival of almost half a million Muslims.5 ... The loss of the Armenian and Greek communities, accompanied by the deaths of an estimated 2.5 million Muslims in the wars, left the new Turkish Republic considerably depopulated in comparison to the Ottoman Empire.9

The Routledge Handbook of Modern Turkey

p. 35 Following its losses in the Italian and Balkan Wars of 1911–13 Turkey found itself in a precarious strategic position. ... The demographic transformation of the empire had major political implications. With endless waves of refugees fleeing the war zones in both directions—mostly Muslims arriving in Turkey and Christians leaving—the Muslim proportion of the Ottoman population was approaching 80 percent p. 50 Long-term consequences of the wars and economic nationalism in the republic After 1912 the Ottoman Empire and its principal successor state, Turkey, were engaged in a series of wars that lasted for a decade. The Balkan Wars of 1912–13 were followed by World War I and the War of Independence from 1920 to 1922. Demographic changes were an important and long-lasting legacy of this decade. The population of the areas later included in Turkey was close to 17 million in 1913. Total war-related deaths, military and otherwise, among Muslim Turks and Kurds during this decade are estimated at close to 2 million. Moreover, the Armenian population of Anatolia declined ... Finally, in the largest-ever peacetime population exchange agreement, signed between Greece and the Republic of Turkey in 1923, approximately 1.2 million Greeks left Anatolia, and, in return, close to half a million Muslims arrived from Greece and the Balkans ... As a result of these massive changes, at the end of 1924 the population of Turkey stood at around 13 million, a decrease of approximately 20 percent from a decade before. In terms of its religious composition, the population of Turkey emerged as much more homogeneous than the Ottoman population of the same area, with Muslim Turks and Kurds making up close to 98 percent of the total.

Based on above, I'm going to recommend adding a footnote into the lead. It's clear there are WP:DUE concerns and we've been trying to condense things, but these are leading to WP:OR or WP:NPOV (Wikipedia:Cherrypicking) issues. I think the solution is a new footnote. We can put all of Option 1 into this footnote. The footnote should also include large loss of life among ethnic Turks and ethnic Kurds between 1912 and 1922. It should also note Population exchange between Greece and Turkey. Finally it should include that modern-day Turkey's population declined 20% between 1913 and 1924.

I think the footnote could be included after a sentence such as "The end of Ottoman Empire was accompanied by large-scale loss of human life and mass displacement". We can also add another sentence into the lead (addition in bold): The Republic was proclaimed on 29 October 1923, modelled on the reforms initiated by the country's first president, Mustafa Kemal Atatürk. Turkey emerged as a more homogenous nation state.

The last sentence is based on above (homogenous part) and below. Note that there are no cherrypicking issues since it doesn't say Turkey emerged as a more homogenous nation state due to random X and Y factors.

source

The Cambridge History of Turkey Volume 4: Turkey in the Modern World, p. 112: An investigation of modern Turkey’s roots, of its political traditions, socioeconomic transformations, and cultural heritage, can reasonably start in the early centuries of the Ottoman Empire. The emergence of Turkey as sovereign nation-state, though, occurred late, when its new boundaries were determined with international recognition in 1923

Rise of nationalism in the Ottoman Empire can be added into the sentence at the end of second paragraph (addition in bold): From 1789 onwards, the empire saw a major transformation, reforms, centralization, and rising nationalism while its territory declined

Compassionate727 and Kowal2701, what do you think? Is this footnote idea a fair solution in line with the sources? Bogazicili (talk) 15:30, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

I think a footnote is a good compromise, and addresses WP:Due. The end of Ottoman Empire was accompanied by mass displacement and large-scale loss of human life would be better syntax imo. The footnote should probably cover each point in chronological order, so a sentence on Persecution of Muslims during the Ottoman contraction, then one on Late Ottoman genocides, then one on the population exchange, and avoid WP:Weasel words Kowal2701 (talk) 16:33, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

Agreed with your suggested wording.

The footnote would include all of Option 1 and the things I mentioned above. Note that loss of life among ethnic Turks and ethnic Kurds in modern-day Turkey is separate from Persecution of Muslims during the Ottoman contraction, although some of the numbers may overlap. Persecution of Muslims during the Ottoman contraction happened in Balkans, Caucasus, Crimea etc, with 5-5.5 million deaths from about 1820 to 1920. The other is 2-2.5 million deaths in modern-day Turkey between 1912 and 1922. That's why I suggested "large-scale loss of life among ethnic Turks and ethnic Kurds", without giving numbers. The precise dates and numbers can be explained in the body.

And again, the footnote would end with 20% reduction in population, covering everyone. Bogazicili (talk) 16:41, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

I don't like the idea of a footnote in the lead; it seems like a tacit admission that its content is undue for the lead but we want to include it anyway. Nevertheless, it might be the best obtainable outcome. —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 13:48, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

• Option 1 - was going to vote option 4, but fundamentally the academic question is what built Turkey from its predecessor, the ottomon empire? We don't need a full overview of Ottoman history, but we should consider 20th centure nationalistic furor that created Turkey. Similar to the fact that the Holocaust is mentioned in Israel's lede as instigators for its development, and World War II is mentioned in Germany's lede as the instigator for the modern day state, it could probably be argued that exclusion and denigration of non-Turkish and non-Muslims in the Ottoman Empire was the predecessor to create Turkey. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 04:31, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

Bluethricecreamman, have you read the quotes from WP:Tertiary sources above before making this !vote? Bogazicili (talk) 18:10, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

I think it'll be hard to find consensus when RfC is asked this way. It'd have been easier to ask this with two options, if there is need for change or not. If there is consensus for change, whether it's removing or trimming etc, a follow up RfC can be conducted to clarify.

Youprayteas, the other option would be some sort of merge, similar to India: "The dissolution of Ottoman Empire was accompanied by a large-scale loss of life" Bogazicili (talk) 19:37, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

Can you open a RfC then Youprayteas ^{talk/contribs} 13:08, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

No you already opened, so that's not necessary. Bogazicili (talk) 18:08, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

Comment: Thank you for bringing to our attention the fact that Japan does not mention the war crimes of the Japanese Empire in its lead. This is misleading and would be akin to omitting mentions of the Holocaust from the lead for the Germany article. I have gone ahead and WP:BOLDly corrected that error over at Japan. For future reference, the correct place to note such a problem would have been at Talk:Japan, not Talk:Turkey. We do not make other unrelated page worses along the same lines of anotber bad page simply because WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS; that's just not how Wikipedia works. Brusquedandelion (talk) 05:12, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is just an essay, it's not a Wikipedia policy or guideline. What we don't do is to use Wikipedia as a source per WP:V. I don't think getting tips from other articles, especially FA ones, is an issue. I think it's also useful in identifying Wikipedia:Systemic bias. Bogazicili (talk) 16:15, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Following convention is valid. I suggest you focus more on the body of country articles covering these rather than the lede, which is not the place for moralisms or holding countries accountable for their history, it’s for events crucial to their history. Kowal2701 (talk) 17:00, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

If something is notable and relevant enough, then it should be in the lead. Undue doesn't come into concern here imo. See my comment above for more if you're interested [55] KhndzorUtogh (talk) 15:44, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Of course WP:UNDUE comes into concern. You are trying to add Time Magazine article about Armenia into the lead of Turkey [56]. A relevant discussion is also at Talk:United_States#No_mention_of_"ethnic_cleansing"_or_"genocide" Bogazicili (talk) 13:40, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

See my response. [57] KhndzorUtogh (talk) 17:19, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

References

References

Turkey changed the country name to Türkiye in June 2022

I wonder if this has been discussed before.

The name of Turkey has been officially changed to Türkiye, such as-is recognized by the UN and EU - or to be more clear, as-from 2 June 2022, the country requested that their name be changed at the United Nations to this. The EU immediately recognized this change and reflected it in all official communications, as did the U.S. evidently The U.S. Embassy in Ankara recognizes this name as well.

Has there been a discussion about this on Wikipedia? Does there need to be one?

Comments would be appreciated, and if anyone can flag this for discussion, I would be grateful. I'm not familiar with which discussion boards this would go to. BlueSapphires (talk) 09:34, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Burma changed it's name at the UN in 1993, to Myanmar.

Wikipedia doesn't call the country Burma. Just to say.

BlueSapphires (talk) 09:37, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia moved the article from Burma to Myanmar in 2015. We don't care what the UN, EU, or even the country itself uses. We follow common usage in independent reliable sources in English. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 14:55, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

The very top of the page shows all the previous discussions for moving the article. The last one was in February with consensus against moving. Mellk (talk) 09:38, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

This is addressed in the FAQ. Wikipedia uses the most commonly used name of subjects of articles, not necessarily the official one. If reliable sources start consistently calling the country Türkiye instead of Turkey, then a move would be considered. At present however, English-language reliable sources have not started using the new name, so a proposed move would be doomed to fail (and there have been many such failed proposed moves). Bowler the Carmine | talk 16:16, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Czechia is still Czech Republic. The English usage is still Turkey even if Turkiye is the preferred official version. Metallurgist (talk) 15:38, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Of importance, English doesn't have diacritical marks as part of its language generally speaking (Yes, they do show up, as noted in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_terms_with_diacritical_marks). As mentioned in the article, words with diacritical marks tend to come from other languages (they aren't natively English) and those marks tend to disappear over time. It is quite likely that at some point all the college / high school textbooks and even many of the elementary ones will include the new spelling—even then, it seems unlikely that the common usage will change. It just isn't English. It is unfortunate too that the request by the Turkish government was made to create a new English word with diacritical marks only used in a handful of cases (but the title of the article cares not for the whims of politicians but for practical usage). eleuthero (talk) 09:31, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Infobox and constitutional change 2017

Shouldnt the infobox list in its history breakdown the 2017 constitutional change to presidential system? Nsae Comp (talk) 04:58, 16 December 2024 (UTC)